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Topic: What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening (Read 12251 times) previous topic - next topic
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What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

My speakers don't give a wide enough sound, so I was thinking of using a stereo widening app. I just need a little bit of a wider sound, not too much. I was just wondering how stereo widening negatively impacts the sound because audiophiles say that a lot about stereo widening.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #1
In what way is their sound too narrow? Is there bleed-through or something? I assume you’re talking about something different that can’t be fixed by moving the speakers.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #2
In what way is their sound too narrow? Is there bleed-through or something? I assume you’re talking about something different that can’t be fixed by moving the speakers.


No there attached to each other for some stupid reason. The sounds cover each other a little too much. But I was just wondering what the negative things about stereo widening are?

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #3
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What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening?
It screws-with the timing/phasing, which may be good if you like the effect, or bad if you don't like it.    It can sound really bad if played-back on a mono system.  I'd just recommend keeping a copy of the unaltered original.   

Most mixing/mastering engineers avoid it (or use it very minimally) because it's "unnatural" and it messes-up mono compatibility.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #4
Most mixing/mastering engineers avoid it (or use it very minimally) because it's "unnatural" and it messes-up mono compatibility.


Is there anything bad about it if you don't have mono speakers?

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #5
I was just wondering how stereo widening negatively impacts the sound because audiophiles say that a lot about stereo widening.
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The thing is: it's not always possible. If you have a recording made in XY or overdubbed with pan-pot it will work, but only partially. Stereo widening makes the thigns that are slightly off-center more off-center, but it doesn't change anything that is already 'right' or 'left'.

Moreover, if there is any phase-stereo in the audio (because there was an A-B, ORTF, NOS etc. recording technique used somewhere), it will mess up, because stereo widening usually only treats intensity stereo differences, not phase stereo. So the effect of the plugin is limited and in cases it doesn't work, it actually makes matters worse.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #6
My layman's opinion:

Basically, Stereo Widening, in principle, is a manipulation of side and center signals.

As you said "My speakers do not give a wide enough sound...", perhaps this is the first item to be checked, what's the frequency range of the speakers.

What are the dimensions of the music room.

What musical genre do you hear more often; some musical genres sound best with a slight increase in the width of stereo, others not so much, or even the listening experience gets worse. I see it as a purely subjective matter.

Your favorite music sounds better with wide stereo? Great! Let's rock!
Your listening experience was not very pleasant? Ok, let's get to the original master recording. Don't worry about anything else.

Nothing about good and bad things belonging exclusively to personal taste.
loquor mee menti: factus de materia, cinis elementi...

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #7
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Is there anything bad about it if you don't have mono speakers?
No!  It's YOUR MUSIC and you can do as you like!!!!   It's no different from boosting the bass or adding reverb.

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Now...  The basic concept of "high fidelity" is to reproduce the recording exactly as recorded.  That requires good equipment (especially speakers) in a good room with proper speaker placement.  And of course, it means no monkeying around with the recording.  Many audiophiles & purists don't like altering the original performance in any way. 

Sometimes you may like a little equalization because you don't have perfect speakers in a perfect room.  (Audiophiles would consider that to be legitimate, because the equalization brings you closer to the original performance.)

Sometimes you may not like the way the original recording was made...  Maybe there's too much, or too little, bass for your taste.  Or, maybe it's an older recording with "dull" highs.  That can be adjusted with equalization. 

I'm NOT a purist...  Personally, I like a little rear-channel reverb (from a Dolby Pro Logic soundfield setting on my receiver) when listening to 2-channel stereo on my 5.1 channel system.     

When I digitize vinyl recordings, some of the older recordings sound a little dull to me so I'll add some high-end boost.  (And, I try to clean-up the vinyl "snap", "crackle", and "pop".)

The constantly-loud one-note boom-boom bass on some rap & pop songs annoys me, so I'll turn-down the bass...  I just don't like the sound of the original recording. 

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Like I said, I recommend you keep an unaltered original.  You might not like the effect on a system with better speaker placement, or in your car, or on headphones, etc.  Or, you might simply change your mind about what sounds good in the future.

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If you an audio engineer doing production, you've gotta' be more careful with this stuff because you want a "product" that sounds as good as possible on everybody's sound system, and you especially don't want to mess-up the sound for listeners with really good systems with their speakers properly positioned in a room with good acoustics.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #8
Ok, thanks for your help so much!  Although I don't entirely understand everything because i'm not well versed on audio jargon. But I just wanted to use a specific example. Take this song: http://grooveshark.com/#!/s/Weird+Fish...gi/14Il15?src=5

The vocals seem to be coming out in equal volume from both speakers. So will a stereo widener make it sound less natural by "stretching" the vocal or will it just choose to move the vocal to one side or what?

Also I was wondering why would it mess with phasing? To be clear that's when sounds on either speaker play a split second after each other to give it a more spatial/ natural feel right?

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #9
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The vocals seem to be coming out in equal volume from both speakers. So will a stereo widener make it sound less natural by "stretching" the vocal or will it just choose to move the vocal to one side or what?
That's hard to say...  It depends on the particular widening effect and the particular recording...    It will probably sound wider on both sides.      It's not as straightforward or well defined as something like using EQ to boost the bass at 100 Hz by +3dB. 

Quote
Also I was wondering why would it mess with phasing?
That's just related to how it works.  Different widening effects work differently, and typically the effects developer will keep the details & algorithm secret.   


Can you get to the speaker wires, or is this an enclosed all-in-one system?  If you get to the speaker wires, you can try reversing the +/- connections on one speaker.  That inverts one channel, making the left & right channels out-of-phase.  It makes it sound "spacey" and maybe "wider", even with a "mono" source that's identical in both channels.  If you can't get to the wires, you can invert one channel in your audio editor. 

The effect will be "better" if your speakers are farther apart.

Simply reversing the polarity of one channel is not a good thing to do permanently but it can be a fun experiment...  It also reduces the bass because the speakers are moving in opposite directions and the sound-waves cancel.    The acoustic cancellation at mid & high frequencies is more randomized because of room reflections and the distance between your two ears and the distance between the speakers in relation to the shorter wavelengths.    (The distance between your ears is about the same as a 2kHz wavelength in air). 

It's these unnatural/uneven cancellations that screw with your brain's directional perception to create that spacey-wide sound.  As you move your head or move around the room, different frequencies will sum or cancel making this spacey effect more dramatic.  Part of the effect is just confusing your brain, making it hard to determine where the sound is coming from.

P.S.
If you invert one channel and listen with headphones you won't hear the effect because the soundwaves never mix in the air and cancel.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #10
"That's hard to say...  It depends on the particular widening effect and the particular recording...    It will probably sound wider on both sides.  "

But I thought widening effects worked by pushing the sounds on each speaker farther to the left/right. Is that wrong?

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #11
But I thought widening effects worked by pushing the sounds on each speaker farther to the left/right. Is that wrong?


Well, to start with there are no sounds to "push" further left or further right.  Stereo sound is an illusion, fortunately one that works very well with a good setup.  If you listen to mono on two very well matched speakers playing in phase you will hear an "image" of that sound between the speakers.  But, strictly speaking there is no sound there!  All the sounds are coming from the two speakers, not the empty space in between them.

If you have two well matched speakers it is possible to manipulate the sound coming from each speaker such that sounds may appear well outside of the angle of the speakers.  But the less well matched the speakers are the less well this will work.  Well matched speakers are generally expensive compared to your average "boom box" ones.

If your equipment comes with a "sound spreading" feature, by all means try it.  Do you like that better?  If so, keep using it.

Chances are though, that if you really want a better and more accurate spread of sound you would do best to invest in at least a pair of well matched and reasonably accurate speakers.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #12
Thank you very much, that answers my question. I just have one more question, in my EQ app on my iPhone there is a feature where I can turn up the "resonance." It does something but I can't put my finger on what. What is turning up the resonance supposed to do? Will it make it clearer?

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #13
I just have one more question, in my EQ app on my iPhone there is a feature where I can turn up the "resonance." It does something but I can't put my finger on what. What is turning up the resonance supposed to do? Will it make it clearer?


That's hard to say.  Resonance has a technical meaning in audio reproduction and in electronics in general (also in musical instruments), but they are obviously not talking about that.  I suspect, and it's only a guess, that they are adding reverberation (fancy word for echos) to make the sound seem bigger and more "resonant" whatever that means.  Big concert halls have many closely spaced audio resonances and that seems to distinguish the good ones from the bad ones.

I would advise you to listen to that effect and decide if you like it.  If you do, fine, if not turn it off.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #14
A basic stereo widening feature often reduces the level of the vocals, and increases the level of any reverb. Apart from anything else, this can make the lyrics harder to hear.

This SW includes some stereo processing that can be useful in moderation...
http://www.stereotool.com/

Cheers,
David.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #15
Quote
But I thought widening effects worked by pushing the sounds on each speaker farther to the left/right. Is that wrong?
I know this doesn't help you since you can't separate your speakers, but yesterday I mentioned that the  widening effect will work better if the speakers are farther apart...  I was thinking a little more about it last night...

The concept of widening is to alter the recording, not the speakers.    For example, there are some early stereo Beatles records that are "hard panned" (with the vocals completely on the left, and the guitars completely on the right... or something like that.)    You can't get any "wider" than that!  A "widening" effect on those Beatles records might make the sound more diffuse (making it harder to tell exactly where the vocals are coming from, etc.) 

BTW - It's a LOT easier to "narrow" a recording by blending the left & right channels, and there are no odd phasing/timing issues with that.  Many headphone listeners find it more natural-sounding with a little blending, since with headphones the sound waves aren't getting mixed together in the air.

I have a crazy idea for you...  Maybe you can make some little deflectors (out of a thin piece of wood or something) and stick them in front of the speakers at an angle to bounce the sound from the left speaker to the left wall, and bounce the sound from the right speaker to the right wall.  As a quick test, just try a couple of books.    Assuming your speakers have tweeters, you might not want to block the direct sound from the tweeters because high frequencies tend to be absorbed (rather than reflected).   

...I think I stole that idea from Bose.  They've been making "Direct/Reflecting" speakers for a million years.

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #16
...I think I stole that idea from Bose.  They've been making "Direct/Reflecting" speakers for a million years.
...which brings great images to mind of a Bose Flintstones style speaker.

 

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #17
Have you tried Stereo Haas Effect Ping Pong Inverter  (or similar VST plug-in) ... or does it too much for the sound?
You need VST compatible player software (if you use foobar then add VST adapter plugin http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...ts/VST_adapter)

What exactly is bad about too much stereo widening

Reply #18
Have you tried Stereo Haas Effect Ping Pong Inverter


I believe I had that on one of my older amplifiers, only they miss labeled it as the "stereo/mono" switch.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH