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Topic: First Audiophile Setup. Need help! (Read 11983 times) previous topic - next topic
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First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

SORRY FOR THE LONG POST!!!!!!!! <3

So hey all. I'm new to posting on this forum, though I've been reading it for years.
Anyways, I'm finally diving into my first Audiophile setup. This setup is purely for Western Classical Music, Indian Classical Music, and Asian (Chinese/Japanese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese/Korean/Mongolian) Classical Music. Maybe some Folk music and acoustic classic Blues too. And similar.

So from my research, I feel that Magnepan speakers are the best bet for what I'm going to be listening to.
I'd love to get Magneplanar 20.7's, but I cannot afford them right now. Also I don't have the ideal room (yet, that's my next move).

So I see that Magnepan offer a very cheap smaller speaker setup, "The Mini Maggie System". http://www.magnepan.com/model_mini_maggie . I've heard amazing things about these speakers all round, and I feel that planar speakers are the way to go for acoustic/classical music.

So this is the amp I'm looking at; the Decware "Mini Torii". http://www.decware.com/newsite/minitoriise.htm


So the main question:
I'm very inexperienced with matching amps to loudspeakers (I have audio experience in recording studios and being a musician etc. but this is new to me). I don't know if the amp and speakers match up power wise? They're both 4 ohms, but the amp is only 3.3 watts. And I don't understand voltage/sensitivity stuff (yet). Will they work together at all? Someone please help!!!!!!!!!!!! <3 <3 <3




I also have a few extra questions if anyone can help me, rather than making new threads.

1. My sources will be Vinyl and 24bit 192khzish digital audio in FLAC/APE/WAV format. But I need a sound card/audio interface for the digital audio. I would prefer a high quality USB 3.0/Firewire/Thunderbolt audio interface. I'll be using a laptop; I can't buy an integrated sound card. Can anyone help point me in the right direction for one that is both transparent and has the output type (RCA left and right) to match this amp (without preamping the signal, the Decware amp says it won't need a preamp). I care not for the recording abilities of the audio interface (though they're a bonus). I'm having a lot of trouble finding the right audio interface/sound card! Help please!

2. What are some good midrange cables to go with this setup? I don't need the best, but I definately don't want cheap cables.

3. Should I invest in a smooth power supply for all the components? Whats a good midrange priced one?

4. How will the Mini Maggie system connect to this amp? The Decware amp has two speaker outputs... But the Mini Maggie system is has two speakers AND a bass speaker. Do I need to look into an amp with a subwoofer output? How does this all work? edit: I found this.. http://www.magnepan.com/using_DWM but the wiring part confuses me. So it's possible to hook up the Bass panel to my amp? It said I may need a second amp : (.

5. The Mini Maggie system says the bass panel only goes as low as 40hz. Is this going to be a huge problem? I know many notes on stand up bass and the lowest keys on a piano are below 40hz. Should I be looking into a different system then? Or just a better bass speaker?

6. What tubes should I use in the Decware Mini Torii for acoustic/classical music? Or is there a better amp or amp+speaker for this you think? Is this amp more for rock?


THANKS SO MUCH FOR READING/HELPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <3 <3 <3
and oh i hope i got this thread on the right board. please move it if it's not

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #1 –
Oh actually.. For my extra question #1... Is it a DAC I'd be looking for? Instead of an audio interface? Hopefully one that can upsample to 384khz.. And takes USB/Firewire/Thunderbolt input and has RCA output. Gah its all so confusing to me. Help!

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #2 –
Quote
I've heard amazing things about these speakers all round, and I feel that planar speakers are the way to go for acoustic/classical music.
I always advise you to go to an audio/video store and LISTEN to a variety of speakers before buying...  Even if you don't buy from that store, and even they don't sell the speaker you are considering. 

It's one thing to hear about a speaker and another thing to actually hear the speaker yourself.    The specifications for speakers tend to be useless, and different manufacturers may use different measurement methodologies.  Opinions and preferences vary.  And every speaker sounds different.    So the speaker that sounds best to me may not sound the best to you!

Quote
So this is the amp I'm looking at; the Decware "Mini Torii"...

...They're both 4 ohms, but the amp is only 3.3 watts.
That may be enough power, depending on how loud you listen.    The dB level is how loud it goes with a given wattage/voltage at a given distance.  (2.83V is 2 Watts into 4 Ohms, or 1W into 8 Ohms.)  Every time you double the wattage, you get 3 more dB.   


But to spend that kind of money on a 3W amp seems silly to me.  It also seems silly to buy an amp with 1950s technology...  Come on...  Vacuum tubes???    Amps are not like speakers...  Almost all modern solid-state amps are better than human hearing.    But, it COSTS a LOT more to build a tube amp and it's a lot more difficult to build a good one. 

You've been reading too much "audiophile nonsense"!

Quote
1. My sources will be Vinyl and...
If your turntable doesn't have a built-in preamp, you'll need a phono preamp.  Many modern turntables have preamps and/or USB connections, but a "traditional" or "audiophile" turntable will not.  In the old days, receivers had the phono preamp built-in, but most modern receivers do not.

Quote
But I need a sound card/audio interface for the digital audio. I would prefer a high quality Firewire or Thunderbolt audio interface. I'll be using a laptop; I can't buy an integrated sound card.
The headphone output on the laptop may be acceptable.  A headphone output is compatible with line-level inputs on a power amp.  (The reverse is not true...  Headphones should b\nto be connected to a line-output.)  with If you don't hear nose, the other specs (frequency response and distortion) are usually better than human hearing. 

If you do have noise a regular USB soundcard may be adequate.  If not you can look for a USB or firewire "audio interface" (example).  These things are usually sold where they sell musical instruments and equipment for recording.  Usually, the focus is on the inputs for recording, but most of these interfaces also have high quality "monitoring" outputs.

Quote
...it won't need a preamp.
Probably not.  A preamp traditionally serves a couple of purposes (besides "pre-amplifying" the phono signal).  It serves as a control center for selecting between inputs (CD player, DVD player, Phono, Tuner, TV, etc.)  It also has a volume control, and tone controls, and connections for a recording device, etc.  In most systems, all of these functions are built into the receiver (along with a tuner and a power amp).

You may need a way to switch between the turntable and computer, and you may need a way to control the volume from the turntable if you get a power amp without a volume control.

Quote
2. What are some good midrange cables to go with this setup? I don't need the best, but I definately don't want cheap cables.
For line-level signals, the cables should be shielded to prevent hum pick-up.  And, you'd like them to be rugged enough that they don't break easily.  Other than that, more expensive cables are not going to give you better sound.

For speaker cables, regular-old lamp cable (16 or 18 gauge) is all you need.   


Quote
3. Should I invest in a smooth power supply for all the components? Whats a good midrange priced one?
What?  Just plug your stuff into the wall.    If you have noisy, unstable, power where you live, you may need some sort of power conditioner.

Quote
4. How will the Mini Maggie system connect to this amp? The Decware amp has two speaker outputs... But the Mini Maggie system is has two speakers AND The  a bass speaker. Do I need to look into an amp with a subwoofer output? How does this all work?
You don't need a separate amp.  The normal way would be to connect the woofer to the amp, and then connect the other speakers to the woofer.    A normal 2-way or 3-way speaker works in a similar way with an internal crossover network to split the highs, lows between the woofer & tweeter (and mids for a 3-way), but you don't see the wiring because it's inside the speaker cabinet.

You can also connect the woofer or main panels in parallel, but you probably need an amp that can handle a 2-Ohm load (two 4-Ohm speakers in parallel).

Note that a "normal" home theater system is wired differently.  The subwoofer "crossover" (and bass management) is built-into the receiver.  The receiver has a line-level subwoofer output, and the subwoofer has it's own built-in power amplifier.

Quote
5. The Mini Maggie system says the bass panel only goes as low as 40hz. Is this going to be a huge problem? I know many notes on stand up bass and the lowest keys on a piano are below 40hz.  Should I be looking into a different system then? Or just a better bass speaker?


40Hz is pretty low...  20Hz is the "traditional" lower limit of human hearing.  When you play the low notes on an acoustic piano, you are mostly hearing harmonics.  It takes LOTs of power and a big woofer to get deep bass.  The lowest note on a bass guitar is about 40Hz.    When played through a proper bass amp, you can feel it as much as hear it.  And again, you are hearing lots of harmonics.  Most live sound systems and systems in clubs where you can "feel the bass" go down to around 40Hz.  (You can download test tones or generate them with Audacity if you want to experiment.)

Quote
6. What tubes should I use in the Decware Mini Torii for acoustic/classical music? Or is there a better amp or amp+speaker for this you think? Is this amp more for rock?
Don't use a tube amp.  If the sound of the tube amp changes when you change the tubes, either the amplifier is poorly designed or the tubes have aged.    And, if the sound changes when you switch between (good) tubes, the sound is likely to change every few months as the tubes age.  Again, that sounds like a poorly designed amp to me!


First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #4 –
Quote
Oh actually.. For my extra question #1... Is it a DAC I'd be looking for? Instead of an audio interface? Hopefully one that can upsample to 384khz.. And takes USB/Firewire/Thunderbolt input and has RCA output. Gah its all so confusing to me. Help!
Every soundcard has a DAC built-in.    Again if you are not hearing noise, there is probably no advantage to anything "better".  And, don't spend a lot of money.    Some of the best DAC chips used in the most expensive DACs cost about $5 USD. 

There's more to a DAC than the chip, but it doesn't cost a whole lot to build a good one.  It does cost a lot to build, market, and distribute in small quantities.  And, a high price tends to make the item more desirable to audiophiles!

Upsampling gains you nothing for 2 reasons.  First,  16-bits/44.1Khz is better than human hearing... Take any high resolution audio file and downsample it to 1-/44.1 (or 16/48) and you won't hear any difference.    Second, You can't magically add (useful) resolution.  Upsampling is like copying a VHS tape to Blu-Ray.  Sure, the Blu-Ray is "high definition", but the picture isn't any better than the original VHS.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #5 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
I always advise you to go to an audio/video store and LISTEN to a variety of speakers before buying...  Even if you don't buy from that store, and even they don't sell the speaker you are considering.

It's one thing to hear about a speaker and another thing to actually hear the speaker yourself.    The specifications for speakers tend to be useless, and different manufacturers may use different measurement methodologies.  Opinions and preferences vary.  And every speaker sounds different.    So the speaker that sounds best to me may not sound the best to you!

Well it is partly from experience that I find most speakers to sound very... boxy. I thought these would be different. There is a place around that carries Magnepan products, I'll give them a try.

Quote
That may be enough power, depending on how loud you listen.    The dB level is how loud it goes with a given wattage/voltage at a given distance.  (2.83V is 2 Watts into 4 Ohms, or 1W into 8 Ohms.)  Every time you double the wattage, you get 3 more dB.   

But to spend that kind of money on a 3W amp seems silly to me.  It also seems silly to buy an amp with 1950s technology...  Come on...  Vacuum tubes???    Amps are not like speakers...  Almost all modern solid-state amps are better than human hearing.    But, it COSTS a LOT more to build a tube amp and it's a lot more difficult to build a good one. 

You've been reading too much "audiophile nonsense"!

I'm sure your right that I've been reading too much nonsense, but I am an electric guitar player. And in most cases, everything new and digital is worse than tubes (unless you're looking into playing Metal) amp wise when looking for a more natural tone. So I tend to give that 1950's technology a bit of favour. But I wouldn't know whats best with classical music. I did think that amp would be more for rock and roll anyways. But I'll wait to hear more opinions haha

Quote
If your turntable doesn't have a built-in preamp, you'll need a phono preamp.  Many modern turntables have preamps and/or USB connections, but a "traditional" or "audiophile" turntable will not.  In the old days, receivers had the phono preamp built-in, but most modern receivers do not.

Wait, it needs a preamp even with the said amp? Alright, count me confused.

Quote
The headphone output on the laptop may be acceptable.  A headphone output is compatible with line-level inputs on a power amp.  (The reverse is not true...  Headphones should b\nto be connected to a line-output.)  with If you don't hear nose, the other specs (frequency response and distortion) are usually better than human hearing.

If you do have noise a regular USB soundcard may be adequate.  If not you can look for a USB or firewire "audio interface" (example).  These things are usually sold where they sell musical instruments and equipment for recording.  Usually, the focus is on the inputs for recording, but most of these interfaces also have high quality "monitoring" outputs.

I had just thought in general the headphone output on a laptop would be lower quality than say using a USB DAC or Audio Interface. I've never personally heard good sound from a laptops headphone out and I've read that they can suffer from poor materials/cheaper designs/interference with other laptop components rather than using USB/Firewire etc. Atleast thats from my experience in recording.

Quote
You don't need a separate amp.  The normal way would be to connect the woofer to the amp, and then connect the other speakers to the woofer.    A normal 2-way or 3-way speaker works in a similar way with an internal crossover network to split the highs, lows between the woofer & tweeter (and mids for a 3-way), but you don't see the wiring because it's inside the speaker cabinet.

Ah, that sounds about right. My current subwoofer does that, I just thought that maybe this Magnepan product might not have connects on the woofer. My bad. I can't find proof it does though, still. Haha..

Quote
40Hz is pretty low...  20Hz is the "traditional" lower limit of human hearing.  When you play the low notes on an acoustic piano, you are mostly hearing harmonics.  It takes LOTs of power and a big woofer to get deep bass.  The lowest note on a bass guitar is about 40Hz.    When played through a proper bass amp, you can feel it as much as hear it.  And again, you are hearing lots of harmonics.  Most live sound systems and systems in clubs where you can "feel the bass" go down to around 40Hz.  (You can download test tones or generate them with Audacity if you want to experiment.)

I have extremely well trained ears for listening between 20-40hz. I grew up a piano player and have a large love for focusing on the fundamentals below 40hz. That's why I'm very worried. A lot of stand-up bass in classical music also have extensions on the lowest string (atleast my local orchestra's do) that allow for verrrry low notes.

Quote
Don't use a tube amp.  If the sound of the tube amp changes when you change the tubes, either the amplifier is poorly designed or the tubes have aged.    And, if the sound changes when you switch between (good) tubes, the sound is likely to change every few months as the tubes age.  Again, that sounds like a poorly designed amp to me!

Well I am such a tube purist for some things but I think you're right about this specific situation. I'll see what everyone has to say though!

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE REPLY!!

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #7 –
That particular set of Magnepans doesn't seem as interesting as the Super MMG set, which is less expensive and has lots more surface area from which to radiate your acoustic tunes. Hell, you could get a quite a good powered subwoofer and a pair of the ~$700 floorstanding MMG speakers for what they're charging for the mini maggie. You'd cover more of the audible spectrum and have a larger emitter. That seems like a better value honestly.

But maybe you don't have the room for floorstanding Magnepans. But if you don't, why go for Magnepans at all?
Unless you have quite a lot of flexibility in furniture placement, I'd think twice about going for a dipole speaker if you have to put your speakers on a desk/workstation. If you have a decent sized listening room and you can step back from your speakers a bit (and tweak their positioning!), then dipoles make more sense. Note the position of the bass module in the mini maggie demo shots; so long legroom!

Most of the Magnepans are rated about 86dB@2.83V/4ohm, which isn't real high efficiency. Consequently, a 3Watt tube amp is Not A Good Idea. Magnepans have a reputation; they like high current with high power. Magnepan doesn't suggest anything directly, but if you read the official magnepan section FAQ about Amplifier Power & Type, the message seems to be "high current, class A/B, rated 50-1000W per channel". That seems like excellent advice for a lower-efficiency, low impedance speaker design. Their concerns about class D amplifiers and 4 ohm loads does seem a trifle outdated, but the message is still clear "high current, high power, solid state amps". So, no tube amps with Magnepans. Note that this is a poor reflection on the anemic power output (and great expense and tendency to fail) characteristics of most tube amplifiers. Try an H/K or NAD stereo receiver that touts high current output instead.

Determined to use a 3Watt tube amp? Buy some Klipschorns. Something with a huge woofer, horn-loaded compression drivers and a 103dB efficiency rating.
Given the cost, I'd say tube amps are almost always a bad idea given the existence of cheap, 4ohm stable Tripath T-amp chips.
Admittedly you can get a 15W/channel Tripath2020 chip amplifier for around $30, so they're not nearly as cool as tube amps, man. Plus, you use tubes of different design and brand to screw up the sound in different, universally expensive ways.

Also note: Playing your music through a computer gives you the potential to alter the output to effectively simulate tube amps if you wish; amplifier modeling of many different styles exists for software suites. Feed the transformed output to an amplifier that produces accurate output, and it sounds like you played it through that given tube amp (with that models' idiosyncratic nonlinearities).

Regarding the DAC/external soundcard, the Asus Xonar series is well regarded, and the Xonar U7 model is capable of 24/192 function. The ideal case would be a USB device with it's own power supply I suppose. Check out the Fiio E09K/E17 combo if you want something that looks more expensive or techy.

Like Doug said, you do need a phono preamplifier section in your receiver if you're using a standard turntable (a few turntables have integrated preamps; those turntables should be fed into a receiver through any other analog input, not the preamped "phono" input). It doesn't matter what the type of main amplifier you use, this is always the case - use the phono input for the phonograph, and nothing else!

"High End" cables are entirely hyperbole and snake-oil; wait until everything else is bought and get some shielded 14 Gauge OFC Copper cable from parts-express or bluejeanscable. Even self-proclaimed cable audiophiles people simply cannot differentiate between cheap and crazy expensive cable if they can't see the cable; this is classic placebo-style bias.


In summary:
Tube amps are a colossal waste of money unless you're playing with distortion on an electric guitar.
Try a Tripath 2020 amp if you're a "tube purist" - they're 1% of the cost, vastly more efficient, and more accurate.
Magnepans are a fine choice for acoustic music, if you've got the room and a good amplifier (not a tube). The one exception might be organ music, where a good powered subwoofer would be advised to fill in the response below ~50Hz. Audition any speaker you plan to buy before you purchase it. Dipolar speakers like Magnepans typically need a bit more room and more tweaking to position properly than monopolar speakers.
Many External sound cards (and "USB DACs") are available; pick one supported by the software/OS you plan to use. Xonar, Fiio, Topping,etc.
Cables are by far the least important part of any system - ignore all claims to the contrary.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Shizzaster on
I am an electric guitar player. And in most cases, everything new and digital is worse than tubes (unless you're looking into playing Metal) amp wise when looking for a more natural tone.


As I am sure you are aware, guitar amps are specially designed to be just that - guitar amps. They are designed to distort and color the sound, but in a way that enhances the character of the instrument. Tubes are great for this (due to their distortion characteristics), but I don't think you want everything to sound like an electric guitar.

Have you tried playing your guitar through a semiconductor amp, but with a tube-based effects box in the chain?

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #9 –
What matters is what the speakers sound like in your room, at the location you intend to put them. Listening in a shop will give you a better idea about this than not listening at all, but it can still be quite misleading.

I'm a great believer in placing speakers (and listener) way way away from the walls. "In the middle of the room" / "Totally in the way" are two ways of describing this positioning. Few people can do this though. It's impossible in small rooms. It's near-impossible in normal living rooms.

Given all your questions, I think you may have joined the wrong forum. People here are passionate about great sound, but judge many of the things you're asking about as (at best) distractions from getting great sound, and (at worst) preventing you getting great sound.

Cheers,
David.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Shizzaster on
1. My sources will be Vinyl and 24bit 192khzish digital audio


There are many discussions here which explain why 16-bit 44.1 KHz is more than enough for anything audible you could ever get from vinyl, and anything beyond those numbers is just wasting space, with no audible benefit whatsoever, not even in theory. You should go read http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html when you get a chance. Maybe also http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)

Quote
The Mini Maggie system says the bass panel only goes as low as 40hz.


Frequency range specs are not standardized, and you can bet they are being generous. The fact that they have the range given as 40 Hz to 40 KHz and haven't provided a graph or even a +/- dB range makes me skeptical. This "bass panel" may look pretty and may sound OK, but I doubt it'll be giving you anything close to a flat response below 100 Hz, and I would interpret that 40 Hz bottom end as an absolute limit. Maybe I'm wrong, though; I haven't heard it.

It's good that you ask about gear that's not too cheap, but so far it sounds like you're overthinking it and are looking at overpriced gear and reading too much marketing hype.

I suggest that instead of researching tube amps and "bass panels" for your desktop, you just go to Guitar Center (or whatever the equivalent is where you are), take some of your own music with you, and listen to it through some powered studio monitors, playing with the volume knob so you hear how it sounds at low, moderate, and as-loud-as-you-can-stand-it levels. (Powered is the opposite of passive; it means you won't need an amp; they plug into the wall and have their amps built-in.) If you walk out with a pair of KRK monitors and a subwoofer, I doubt you will be disappointed.

IMHO, don't buy expensive cables, or longer or thicker cables than you need. Many will claim to be shielded, but the quality varies. Nowadays I'd probably just search on Newegg or Amazon for the cheapest cables with the most good reviews.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #11 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
"Totally in the way"


:-D

I have wondered whether to use speakers to divide the room. Have a library niche or whatever behind them, and cage them so they cannot accidentally be tipped over when walking in and out of there.


Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Few people can do this though. It's impossible in small rooms. It's near-impossible in normal living rooms.


Suggested approach:
1) Review, select, acquire and move in to a new home.
2) Review, select, acquire and move in a pair of speakers.
3) Review, select, acquire and move in other furniture.
4) Review, select, acquire and move in a significant other.
The order is crucuial.
 

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Shizzaster on
So the main question:
I'm very inexperienced with matching amps to loudspeakers (I have audio experience in recording studios and being a musician etc. but this is new to me). I don't know if the amp and speakers match up power wise? They're both 4 ohms, but the amp is only 3.3 watts. And I don't understand voltage/sensitivity stuff (yet). Will they work together at all? Someone please help!!!!!!!!!!!!


Matching amplifiers to speakers is a narrow view of the actual problem that misses the mark so thoroughly that it can be at best frustrating, and at worst harmful to you.

The actual elements in any sound system design large or small are:

(1) Listener preferences for peak SPL.

(2) Distance from loudspeaker(s)  to listener(s)

(3) Loudspeaker placement - the extremes being the middle of the room versus in corner(s) by the floor or ceiling.

(4) Loudspeaker efficiency

(5) Amplifier power

BTW, the above points apply to every audio system from a tiny office system to a huge arena system.

There are online calculators that help you with the arithmetic such as this one:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Probably the part of the equation that most people struggle with the most is (1) Listener preferences for peak SPL.  The best way I have found to gather evidence about this is to get a fast reading peak holding SPL meter such as this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DIGITAL-SOUND-...g-/251013493930

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-130dB-USB-Digit...r-/251425940110

Use it while you are cranking up your current favorite sound system.


First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Porcus on
The order is crucuial.
Indeed. And with that order, you're not going to make it onto item 4.

Speakers as room dividers works well. In one flat I found having effectively an open room behind the speakers dramatically increased the depth of the sound stage. I suspect this is mostly in the listener's mind (a psychovisual/aural interaction), but partly of course the sound was echoing around in there and then coming back into the "listening" half of the room.


I can't remember what it's called (I think it begins with "B", name after its inventor), but there's a set up for long rooms where you place each speaker mid way along each of the long walls, hard up to the walls, facing each other. You need speakers with an omnidirectional response to the front ~160 degrees, nothing to the sides or back. Then, you can hear excellent stereo anywhere along the line half way between the two long walls. With the right speakers, this works well enough to be interesting. With the wrong speakers, it sounds awful and you'll wonder why anyone would even try it.

Cheers,
David.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #14 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: Porcus on
The order is crucuial.
Indeed. And with that order, you're not going to make it onto item 4.

Speakers as room dividers works well. In one flat I found having effectively an open room behind the speakers dramatically increased the depth of the sound stage. I suspect this is mostly in the listener's mind (a psychovisual/aural interaction), but partly of course the sound was echoing around in there and then coming back into the "listening" half of the room.


I can't remember what it's called (I think it begins with "B", name after its inventor), but there's a set up for long rooms where you place each speaker mid way along each of the long walls, hard up to the walls, facing each other. You need speakers with an omnidirectional response to the front ~160 degrees, nothing to the sides or back. Then, you can hear excellent stereo anywhere along the line half way between the two long walls. With the right speakers, this works well enough to be interesting. With the wrong speakers, it sounds awful and you'll wonder why anyone would even try it.


So, how do you think this would work with planar, dipole speakers?

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Porcus on
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: Porcus on
The order is crucuial.
Indeed. And with that order, you're not going to make it onto item 4.

Speak for yourself! 

I sorted out item 2 long before the others. 1 and 3 seem to have a habit of changing whether you want them to or not IME. Never changing 4.

Back on topic, I would really encourage the OP to listen to these speakers. Their technology gives them a sound all of their own. Don't just trust what other people say. Several times I've been surprised at just how much I've disliked things that have great reputations.

Cheers,
David.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #17 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: Porcus on
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: Porcus on
The order is crucuial.
Indeed. And with that order, you're not going to make it onto item 4.

Speak for yourself! 

I sorted out item 2 long before the others. 1 and 3 seem to have a habit of changing whether you want them to or not IME. Never changing 4.

Back on topic, I would really encourage the OP to listen to these speakers. Their technology gives them a sound all of their own. Don't just trust what other people say. Several times I've been surprised at just how much I've disliked things that have great reputations.


For example the cloely related Bose Acoustimass AM 15 has this sort of frequency response:



Notice the very poor blending between bass and treble - this hole around 200 Hz is pretty common across the Bose line of cube miin-speakers.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
For example the cloely related Bose Acoustimass AM 15 has this sort of frequency response:

http://www.reocities.com/p_iturra/B_AM_15.JPG

Notice the very poor blending between bass and treble - this hole around 200 Hz is pretty common across the Bose line of cube miin-speakers.

I'm wondering now how the Bose AM 15 is closely related to the magnepans?

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #19 –
Quote from: andy o on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
For example the cloely related Bose Acoustimass AM 15 has this sort of frequency response:

http://www.reocities.com/p_iturra/B_AM_15.JPG

Notice the very poor blending between bass and treble - this hole around 200 Hz is pretty common across the Bose line of cube miin-speakers.

I'm wondering now how the Bose AM 15 is closely related to the magnepans?


They are very different implementations of the concept of loudspeakers. About as independent of each other as they can be. What they share in common is that they were both mentioned in the thread by someone else.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #20 –
There are so many things wrong with your original assumptions that it's hard to decide where to start. Luckily most of the truly egregious false assumptions have been addressed by others so far.

What I will comment on is the preference for tube amps over solid state for your electric guitar. I preface this by saying I've been playing electric bass for over 20 years. I prefer solid state amps.

When you say that everything new and digital is worse than tubes you are completely missing the mark. If you don't like the way your guitar sounds through a good solid-state amp, then you don't like how your guitar *actually* sounds. What you like about tube amps is the way they distort the output of your guitar. Typically tube guitar amps are not faithfully reproducing what you feed into their inputs. They distort and color the signal, and over the decades everyone has become so used to that distortion that when presented with an amp that actually faithfully reproduces the input, you believe it sounds bad.

I prefer a power amp that does what the label says and simply amplifies the input signal with as little distortion as possible. If I want to distort or color the output of my instrument then I will do that in the input signal chain where such processing belongs and is most efficient so I can have fine grained control over it. If the power amp noticeably distorts the signal then you are stuck with that distortion and have no way to get a more faithful reproduction, even if you want one.

As abundant as misinformation and misconceptions are around general audio, it unfortunately tends to pale next to that espoused and held by electric instrument wielding musicians. It's to the point that amp manufacturer's reputations tend to be based more on how they distort the signal rather than on their build quality and faithful reproduction.


First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Notice the very poor blending between bass and treble
As far as I can tell the chart shows individual frequency response curves and there's no "combined" FR curve. How can you be so sure there will be any dip @ 200 Hz at all while playing everything at the same time?

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Martel on
As far as I can tell the chart shows individual frequency response curves and there's no "combined" FR curve. How can you be so sure there will be any dip @ 200 Hz at all while playing everything at the same time?


You can work out the combination yourself. I assume it's where the sub drops to nothing, the speakers are still way down, so at that point the sub is contributing nothing at that frequency. Hence the dip.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #23 –
Quote from: yourlord on
What I will comment on is the preference for tube amps over solid state for your electric guitar.
If you don't like the way your guitar sounds through a good solid-state amp, then you don't like how your guitar *actually* sounds.
What you like about tube amps is the way they distort the output of your guitar.


If *he* likes that distortion and the way it makes his guitar sound then surely that is a personal preference? To tell him to buy a SS and to put a modifier in the signal chain to give a faux valve sound seems plain wrong, just buy the valve amp and keep it simple.

Quote from: yourlord on
It's to the point that amp manufacturer's reputations tend to be based more on how they distort the signal rather than on their build quality and faithful reproduction.


Or you could put it another way, some amp manufacturers 'signature sound' is based on a certain type distortion, a group prefer rather that sound to 'faithful reproduction' and those people pay their money and make their choice.

As for changing the signal "I will do that in the input signal chain where such processing belongs" surely the final result is all that matters? If you add distortion after and like it then that is no less valid than your rigid sound processing.

First Audiophile Setup. Need help!

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Martel on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Notice the very poor blending between bass and treble
As far as I can tell the chart shows individual frequency response curves and there's no "combined" FR curve.


None seems to be needed. In the eyes of experienced people, the curves are pretty self-evident.

Quote
How can you be so sure there will be any dip @ 200 Hz at all while playing everything at the same time?


Experience with summed responses of drivers in general, and this particular setup in particular.

Even if the two speakers were precisely in phase there would still be dip in power response at the crossover point. Power response is probably the best criteria at low frequencies where acoustic output tends to be non-direction, especially with physically small speakers.

Both speakers are at least 6 dB down which is 1/4 power.  The sum of 1/4 and 1/4 is < 1.0. QED.

As a general rule, speakers are never in phase at the crossover point.  The woofer is approaching its high frequency roll off so its response is lagging. The upper range speaker is approaching its low frequency roll off so its response is leading. 

This assumes that the crossover adds no phase shift of its own which can actually happen if it is a Linkwitz-Riley crossover, but is it?

There may be some geometric configuration where this could be true, but the odds of a consumer finding it are pretty slim.

I still remember the first time I heard an Acoustimass system - the hole in the lower midrange just jumped right out at me.