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Topic: New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur (Read 44567 times) previous topic - next topic
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New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #25 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
did Europe previously have a lower "High" than the rest of the world?


According to my "fast" check, volume setting high with volume full, EQ normal
=> Volume raised to max is equal between different firmwares

Sorry, no measurements here, nor graphs.
Checked with 1.01.32A, 1.01.32P and 1.01.32F.

Remember folks, I'm talking about the oldest clip version, Original V1

Quick Edit:
Selecting HIGH resulted either (on my Clip) firmware region identifier change with higher output or just higher output in earlier firmwares. High was never limited in Europe region but the default setting was Normal
Hevay is The Way!

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #26 –
David, would you mind if I corrected the thread title to something a bit less alarmist?

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #27 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
]Oh please - now you're arguing about things you're "not sure" about. The answers are in this thread - you don't need to guess.


This is really hypocritical of you given the first post of this thread is just a lot of incorrect speculation on your part.  At least my speculation is noted when its speculation, and not phrased as definitive in my thread titles

Quote from: 2Bdecided on
You've got me wondering now - did Europe previously have a lower "High" than the rest of the world? I suspect not - but I suppose someone can check.



Quote from: saratoga link=msg=0 date=
Which IMO makes sense, since if you were volume limited before, even selecting "High" did not give you full volume.


Someone did, and you should consider reading his posts more carefully so he can stop repeating himself!

The volume limited high was 8 dB less then the non-volume limited high on the v2 clip.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #28 –
Quote from: Canar on
David, would you mind if I corrected the thread title to something a bit less alarmist?
No problem!

How about - New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select European region
Subtitle - select USA instead and it's fine

Cheers,
David.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #29 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Oh please - now you're arguing about things you're "not sure" about. The answers are in this thread - you don't need to guess.
This is really hypocritical of you given the first post of this thread is just a lot of incorrect speculation on your part.
Which part is incorrect? Did my Sansa clip not get quieter after the firmware update? Goodness - now you've gone from false claims about hardware you don't even own, to telling me I didn't hear something on my own mp3 player.

Quote
At least my speculation is noted when its speculation, and not phrased as definitive in my thread titles
I think it was quite a sensible over reaction, until a fix was posted. It may still be sensible - there's that non-existent ReplayGain support in the menu - it has all the hallmarks of some beta release that should never have been public.

Quote
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
You've got me wondering now - did Europe previously have a lower "High" than the rest of the world? I suspect not - but I suppose someone can check.


Quote
Which IMO makes sense, since if you were volume limited before, even selecting "High" did not give you full volume.


Someone did, and you should consider reading his posts more carefully so he can stop repeating himself!

The volume limited high was 8 dB less then the non-volume limited high on the v2 clip.


Let's face it, apart from the words "Set it back to America and the EU volume cap will be removed", your contributions to this thread have been incorrect and trollish - but even if this latest "8dB" statement is correct, it's not relevant because...
Quote from:  link=msg=695999 date=0
Remember folks, I'm talking about the oldest clip version, Original V1


Cheers,
David.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #30 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Oh please - now you're arguing about things you're "not sure" about. The answers are in this thread - you don't need to guess.
This is really hypocritical of you given the first post of this thread is just a lot of incorrect speculation on your part.
Which part is incorrect? Did my Sansa clip not get quieter after the firmware update? Goodness - now you've gone from false claims about hardware you don't even own, to telling me I didn't hear something on my own mp3 player.


Haha and this threads new edited title is just my imagination and not someone cleaning up some speculation?

Also, You do realize I'm a rockbox clip developer and I have like every Sandisk player ever made right?  Because you seem to think I've never used a clip before and this isn't quite right

Quote from: 2Bdecided on
I think it was quite a sensible over reaction, until a fix was posted. It may still be sensible - there's that non-existent ReplayGain support in the menu - it has all the hallmarks of some beta release that should never have been public.


Yes until a fix was posted in that thread from 2008 I linked

I think a sensible reaction would be to google this and figure out that about a million people before you have asked this question.  A sensible over reaction would be to bitch on the internet.  Being an ass to me because I told you whats actually going on is a bit more then an overreaction. 



Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Let's face it, apart from the words "Set it back to America and the EU volume cap will be removed", your contributions to this thread have been incorrect and trollish


Trolling - When People Disagree with me when I'm angry on the internet over MP3 players

Quote from: 2Bdecided on
- but even if this latest "8dB" statement is correct,


haha yeah I spent months debugging playback on the sansa clip, but its reasonable to think i can't use the windows sound recorder tool. 

You're a grown man.  Stop acting like such a child.

Quote from: 2Bdecided on
it's not relevant because...


You said above you have a V2 clip when you complained about the volume.  Did you get another one?  Maybe you could clarify which caused which problems so I can test it myself.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #31 –
Also my only contribution to this thread was completely resolving your issue!  How are you so petty?

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #32 –
Quote from: saratoga on
AFAIK it changes when you change the region.  The 'F' code means EU with volume limit.  'A' means north america without limit.  On mine if I change the volume setting the letter does not change and the volume limit remains in effect.

No, on both versions you have to do a full reset to change the region.  AFAIK all sandisk firmwares even before the Clip have always required this.


Yes I know what the identifier means and how it is supposed to act. I have been troubleshooting some Clip issues with Rockbox Unusable builds when I was using it and switched between the original and RB firmwares. I cannot tell if it was due to my own error when switching when it changed from F to A, that's why wrote AUTOMAGICALLY. I even reproduced the identifier change with manual firmware update AFTER setting the region to Europe at first startup with original firmware. Maybe issue with my badly cared Clip. My friend's v1 clip doesn't behave like mine.

Quote from: saratoga on
Which IMO makes sense, since if you were volume limited before, even selecting "High" did not give you full volume.


But it did give full output with F-region.
Hevay is The Way!

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #33 –
Quote from: wa11u on
But it did give full output with F-region.


Did you actually measure it or are you just assuming?  Mine did not when set to 'F'.  I could select 'High' but volume was attenuated anyway.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #34 –
No measurements, so no evidence, sorry. But I didn't experience any volume difference between A or F when set to high (comparison with one set of headphones switched between two Clip v1). For me, if I don't hear a difference, I usually don't bother to make further investigation.
You can consider this "You win" statement. I just don't have the interest to debate about a mp3 player.

Edit: To clarify: the headphones had built-in volume control and that was adjusted so that the listening level was normal.
Hevay is The Way!
 

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #35 –
This latest firmware release from Sansa clearly has some problems, and was probably some internal/beta test that should never have been released at all.

(new "ReplayGain" on the menu that doesn't do anything, a new stupidly low "normal" volume, and only this new low "normal" volume is accessible if you select the European region!).

European users can gain access to "High" volume in the latest firmware by selecting USA as their region.


One user, saratoga, seems determined to derail this thread and hide these issues in a mass of argument.

It occurred to me last night that this user probably works for Sansa, and is trying desperately to bury the "bad news" about this mistaken firmware release amidst a mass of arguing, hoping to protect Sansa's reputation.

It seems I was close...
Quote from: saratoga on
Also, You do realize I'm a rockbox clip developer and I have like every Sandisk player ever made right?
...
haha yeah I spent months debugging playback on the sansa clip
...so while not working for Sansa, it's someone with a rather strong emotional attachment to their products.

Be your own judge.

Cheers,
David.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #36 –
The European volume limit is not exactly stupid and is in no way a Sansa only "feature".  Many players have had this for a long time.  My old iRiver H340 has this if used with European firmware (and a similar workaround applies - use the Korean firmware instead).  All iPods sold in Europe are limited to 100 dB max (some earlier models pushed out 130 dB).  At some point a default limit of around 85 decibels will probably be made a legal requirement by the EU, with a 100dB hard limit.  The reason for this is that some personal players push out 120+ dB, way past the point where permanent (irreversible) hearing damage is sustained, even complete hearing loss (deafness).  Remember people listen at extremely high levels for hours not seconds (because for some people louder is always better).  In any kind of workplace with these kinds of levels employees are required to use ear defenders.

So manufacturers are pre-empting the changes in the law, and are also likely thinking about potential litigation if their products cause serious harm.  There are some links to news coverage: 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news...P3-players.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8410302.stm

Personally I'd prefer no limit but that noise isolating earphones are supplied in place of the usual crap, but probably it's better to antagonise people who have already suffered some hearing loss (but don't realise it yet) than to avoid taking a simple precaution that will prevent vast numbers of people joining them.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #37 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
One user, saratoga, seems determined to derail this thread and hide these issues in a mass of argument.

It occurred to me last night that this user probably works for Sansa, and is trying desperately to bury the "bad news" about this mistaken firmware release amidst a mass of arguing, hoping to protect Sansa's reputation.

It seems I was close...
Quote from: saratoga on
Also, You do realize I'm a rockbox clip developer and I have like every Sandisk player ever made right?
...
haha yeah I spent months debugging playback on the sansa clip
...so while not working for Sansa, it's someone with a rather strong emotional attachment to their products.

OMFG. 
 
You're not close enough to cause damage with a 40 megaton nuke.

I've been watching this thread without saying anything, but it's time someone step up and speak for sanity.
The mere idea that saratoga is somehow a defender of Sansa is ludicrous not to mention an unwarranted, unsubstantiated attack.
Rockbox developers tend to own many DAPs because they dislike the original firmware and want to investigate the hardware (and OEM firmware) so that it can be replaced.  Far from giving a rat's ass about the "reputation" of an OEM, Rockbox developers are some of the OEM's harshest and loudest critics.

The idea that one of the devs is concerned with Sansa's reputation is willful ignorance at best.

The fact that this "issue" has been discussed to death on the Sandisk and ABI forums has been mentioned multiple times, and if you choose to be led to water but not drink, that's up to you.
Creature of habit.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Soap on
OMFG. 
 
You're not close enough to cause damage with a 40 megaton nuke.

I've been watching this thread without saying anything, but it's time someone step up and speak for sanity.
The mere idea that saratoga is somehow a defender of Sansa is ludicrous not to mention an unwarranted, unsubstantiated attack.
Rockbox developers tend to own many DAPs because they dislike the original firmware and want to investigate the hardware (and OEM firmware) so that it can be replaced.  Far from giving a rat's ass about the "reputation" of an OEM, Rockbox developers are some of the OEM's harshest and loudest critics.

The idea that one of the devs is concerned with Sansa's reputation is willful ignorance at best.
OK - fair enough.

But if that's true, we're left with a string of incorrect statements, including "everyone's known about this for years" (it was discovered three days before), "Europe high setting has always been quieter" (it hasn't).

Sorry if I'm getting paranoid, but I wonder what he's playing at?

If I seem a little touchy, please remember that only one person in this thread invented something a decade ago, gave it away, and is now being personally blamed for breaking people's mp3 players because of it!

Quote
The fact that this "issue" has been discussed to death on the Sandisk and ABI forums has been mentioned multiple times, and if you choose to be led to water but not drink, that's up to you.
...but Soap, the first mention of it in respect of the Sansa Clip was three days before I started this thread. True, I should have read it(!), but unless I'm missing something:

1. no one on that board has said that the level of the limit is now completely wrong - the EU limit simply isn't that low
2. no one on that board has said that previously the European region worked fine anyway (you could switch the limit off, so that EU/USA made no difference)
3. no one on that board has said "this must be a mistake"
4. ... and don't get me started on the wonderful news of the ReplayGain non-implementation.

Cheers,
David.

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #39 –
If the damn Record companies actually released music with normal volume then maybe this wouldn't have to happen 

New Sansa Clip Firmware - dramatically limits volume if you select Eur

Reply #40 –
Quote from: d_headshot on
If the damn Record companies actually released music with normal volume then maybe this wouldn't have to happen 

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying the music is too loud or too soft?