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Topic: RME digi96/8 PST (Read 8737 times) previous topic - next topic
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RME digi96/8 PST

Please give me a hand.  I am thinking of buying a used RME digi96/8 PST to complete my stereo (2 channel) hi-fi system and replace my Audigy1 for music, but am affraid that since the card is has been discontinued by RME, I am making a bad decision.  However, the RME is offered to me at a spectacular price (you wouldn't believe it!).  Here are two pages that include the specs and detailed specs for the card:

http://www.rme-audio.de/english/digi96/digi96ps.htm

http://www.rme-audio.de/english/digi96/feat96ps.htm

Now, I downloaded the latest drivers and according to the WDM note included it claims:

"This driver uses the Windows Driver Model, therefore is fully Plug and Play compatible under Windows 2000. It does not support WDM streaming or KS (Kernel Streaming)."

Now, if I have my facts right, that would mean I could not use Foobar2k(kernel streaming) to play music, and would have to use Winamp+MAD+Asio2 to get the best quality?

If this is not correct, please end my long journey and tell me what the best manner would be to play music (i.e. Foobar2k, Winamp, etc.) on a PC (including format-- APE FLAC MP3) and WHICH soundcard would give me the BEST musical 'performance' for under $350.00.  I have looked at the Echo Mia that is often mentioned and it seems that the RME PST out-performs it.  Lastly, I could care less about gaming!  At this time, analog output would be preferred, however in time digital would be used.

Again, please end my pain and give me a hint!

Thanks

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #1 –
That card looks really good, with a lot of professional features. The fact that it uses WDM drivers doesn't mean that the quality will be worse than with ks, it depends on implementation. That would be something to check, but I guess that since it's a high quality product the output with waveout or directsound will be bit perfect, as seems to be the case of M-Audio cards.

If you want to play lossless files, nothing can be better than Winamp, since its output is already bit-perfect. As to mp3, Foobar2000 with its dithered output would be comparable to Winamp MAD decoder plugin. With the later there's a ASIO output plugin available, as you say.

For around $350 I'd say the best card you coud get would be a DAL CardDeluxe. Anyway, for listening to music, cheaper cards are already transparent, more if you play 16 bit data. Cards such as mentioned Echo Mia meet this, but also cheaper cards such as M-Audio Audiophile or even M-Audio Revolution (7.1 compatible, just $99). However, the RME card offers a lot of advanced features in comparison, but I guess those are interesting mostly for professional use.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #2 –
Quote
If you want to play lossless files, nothing can be better than Winamp, since its output is already bit-perfect. As to mp3, Foobar2000 with its dithered output would be comparable to Winamp MAD decoder plugin. With the later there's a ASIO output plugin available, as you say.



So your saying that for mp3, Foobar2000 with dithered output would be preferred?  In what playback mode (i.e. Direct Sound or Waveout)?  And for lossless/lossy files, Winamp+MAD+ASIO would be the best choice?  In general which of the two methods listed above would give the OVERALL best performance?  I realize that lossless compression EATS mounds of HD space, but I feel it's well worth it.

Second, how does dithering work? I mean, what exactly does it do?  And why would dithered output be preferred over undithered output under Foobar2k?

Lastly, so the PST would be a wise choice for a Hi-Fi solution?  My biggest fear is buying something that will only rank 'very good' for a year... and then having to look for something AGAIN thereafter.

Thanks for the help!

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #4 –
The RME card has a modified MME driver that has been adapted to run on NT. It is not  a native WDM-audio driver. The drawback is that kernel streaming does not work, however, the benefit is that this card does produce bit perfect payback with waveout or directsound on W2K and XP.

The M-audio DIO24/96, Audiophile 24/96, and the Revolution do not provide bit perfect playback under waveout or directsound on W2K and XP. For these cards you have to use kernel streaming or ASIO.

Cheers

    Thomas

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #5 –
BUBBAgums, let me get this straight: you're only going to be using this card for playback?  If that's the case, then you need to figure out what card will best serve your purposes.  For instance, the M-Audio Revolution may not be perfect, but if you like to play DVDs as well as games and music, it has exceptional quality for the price.  Another item to note is whether you want balanced output/input or not, and whether or not your card's drivers support consumer-level (-10) output, rather than the professional line-level (+4) output.  Balanced outputs will have to be adapted if they're going to be used with a standard system, and professional-level output will be much too loud for most systems.  Tell us what you're going to be using this for, and the fewer uses you can limit it to, the easier it will be to find a card that has a solution.  How picky are you about quality? Speed? Compatabiltiy?  Do you want it to support WDM as well as kernel streaming?

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #6 –
Okay.. thanks for the help!

-Analog playback (digital in future) to a standard consumer Hi-Fi amp, NAD C370 and ARCAM DIVA A85 (I got both 

-Music/MP3/lossless/CD(on occasion) #1 priority... DVDs... welcomed but not important... and the HELL with games... seriously!

-Quality must be INSANE!

-Speed must be adequate... enough not to kill my system.. or have me waiting a year till the next 'song' is played.... if that's what your asking.... if your asking about latency.... i'm not sure i understand the concept completely.

-WDM and kernel streaming would be nice, but if the card can do well without it, the hell with any of the two..... most importantly, we want INSANE quality... spare no expense under $300.00.

That's why it seems the RME digi96/8 PST would be my best choice... but... if i can move some money from the recording capabilities to improve playback... I'm down! 

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #7 –
Quote
So your saying that for mp3, Foobar2000 with dithered output would be preferred?  In what playback mode (i.e. Direct Sound or Waveout)?

I'd say Winamp with MAD would be as good. In Win2k and XP, directsound is "safer" than waveout, but ASIO or ks are even safer. For some cards, it doesn't matter.

Quote
Second, how does dithering work? I mean, what exactly does it do?  And why would dithered output be preferred over undithered output under Foobar2k?


In short, dither removes quantization distortion when converting form a higher bitdepth to a lower bitdepth, by means of adding some slight special noise before the conversion. For that reason, dither is better when converting the 32 bit floating point internal data of Foobar to 24 ot 16 bit (for 24 bit doesn't matter at all).

Quote
Lastly, so the PST would be a wise choice for a Hi-Fi solution?  My biggest fear is buying something that will only rank 'very good' for a year... and then having to look for something AGAIN thereafter.


It depends... If you want the warm and fuzzy feeling, and to show-off with friends, the RME or DAL cards are fine, with Echo MIA you will show-off a little less (sorry if I'm being too sarcastic) , but you won't use most of its advanced features for just listening and connecting to unbalanced home equipment. If you just want the best price/performance ratio, I think M-Audio Revolution is just fine for just listening to music, it will sound as good as anything you can get.

As to worrying about time... All this cards can be considered already sonically transparent (they don't add or quit anything to the perceived sound), so there's nothing now or in the future that can be more "transparent".

Anyway, about objective measurable ouput performance (doesn't mean that it is audible), I'd say that: LynxTwo > DAL CardDeluxe > RME Digi96/8 PST > ECHO Mia > M-Audio Revolution > M-Audio Audiophile 2496. Note that the M-Audio Audiophile is already a very good quality card, that can be considered transparent too.

Also, take good note of silver_cpu comments over output levels.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #8 –
Quote
The M-audio DIO24/96, Audiophile 24/96, and the Revolution do not provide bit perfect playback under waveout or directsound on W2K and XP.

Whilst I don't have the means to verify this with 100% centainty, what I can say is that analog output quality doesn't suffer as far as I can measure. I will post some RMAA measurements in the future to show this.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #9 –
And what about Creative Audigy 2? Nobody has mentioned it. Is it the worst decision that can be ever made? I was going to pick one of them, but while reading forums i don't see somebody's sympathy to this card.
Please, explain me if M-audio cards sound really better (or have much more functions) then audigy2?

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #10 –
According to what I've read, the Audigy2 with latest drivers is quite good, seems that quite comparable to Audiophile 2496 and Revolution, but I'd need some measurements to make that for sure.

The bad thing about it would be the higher price and bloated drivers, but it seems that alternative kx drivers are good.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #11 –
Quote
And what about Creative Audigy 2? Nobody has mentioned it. Is it the worst decision that can be ever made? I was going to pick one of them, but while reading forums i don't see somebody's sympathy to this card.
Please, explain me if M-audio cards sound really better (or have much more functions) then audigy2?

Addition to KikeG's answer: you ask if M-audio cards have more options. Well, for the studio user they do. With an M-audio card you are fully in control of playback sample rates, clock source, bit-perfect digital transferring, that kind of techie stuff. Edit: I am not referring to the Revolution here, I figured you meant to compare audigy2 with m-audio pro-cards.

On the other hand, you'll miss the mumbo-jumbo like DVD-A playback, EAXversion*.*, firewire and all that. You may want these options available for a casual game. Think of a dual OS install, one with the creative bloatware and games, and one with your work-stuff and high-fidelity tuned drivers.

Looking at the measurements at digit-life, I think it is not impossible to get practically the same quality sound out of an Audigy2 as out of the much more expensive semi-pro cards, but you'll have to run it in at least 24/96 playback mode. That means upsampling with the right tools, using a lot of cpu cycles (but who uses cpu cycles for anything these days ).
For any fast readers: don't get me wrong. I'm not another dude claiming that 96kHz can hold more significant info than 48, it's just that you need the conversion to make the Audigy2 sound right.

So there's the choice imho: either popular mumbo-jumbo and cpu-intensive hifi at a high yet fair price, or techie show-off plus less hassle in getting it to sound right at an even slightly more elite price.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #12 –
Quote
Looking at the measurements at digit-life, I think it is not impossible to get practically the same quality sound out of an Audigy2 as out of the much more expensive semi-pro cards, but you'll have to run it in at least 24/96 playback mode.

It seems that with the latest drivers, the resampling at 44.1 KHz is either gone or very high quality (I can't confirm by myself).

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #13 –
I've already using dual OS (WinXP and Win98SE) configuration, and can't find time to install ASPLinux 7.1 (russian release).

Don't need that mumbo-jumbo, just quality. Nothing but quality!!!

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #14 –
The resampled signal coming out of kmixer for M-audio cards seem to have a SNR of about 95db compared to the original signal when run in high quality mode. (If the load on the machine gets high I understand Windows might resort to lower quality resampling).

The self noise and distortion on the analog putputs for all the mentioned M-audio cards is around <002% which roughly means at -95db. Basically starting at bit 16 there is noise in the signal.

Since this is at the same level as the distortions introduced by kmixer I would not expect that an analog measurement especially in loop back mode will show much of a difference. Few power amplifiers resolve at this level, so on playback you have to count in the noise introduced by the amp. This does not mean you might not be able to hear a difference since the noise is statistical. You can still understand a news report in a radio station that is not tuned in correctly but it will not sound as clear as a correctly tuned station. Some people can hear these differences.

In any case these cards really only provide clean 15 bits of resolution. A good outboard DAC can provide 19-20 bits of clean resolution.

Cheers

  Thomas

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #15 –
Please don't let this turn into an M-Audio thread.  I don't want an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 because RicardoMontaner claims his A2496 was 'smeary':

http://www.3dss-forums.com/cgi-bin/wwwthre...b=5&o=14&fpart=

For those of you interested, RicardoMontaner actually goes through some mods in this thread, and if your a 'techy' it's certainly 'CAP'tivating.

As of right now, I'm leaning toward the RME PST, but I would like to definately know whether or not the fact that it doesn't do kernel streaming therefore making it dependent on the system clock (from what I understand) 'handicaps' it's performance.  That's my main concern, being that I'm stuck on a crappy KT133A system for now, and you all know the headaches that come with this chipset.  According to the techies at RME, there should be no problem, but the arguements are not as extensive as those posted for the Echo Mia (which supports PureSound? I think it's called).  I'd really like to bypass the kmixer, and from what I understand the drivers developed by RME do, but I want to be 100% sure!

Thanks for all your help and keep on suggesting.... If anything I learn a lot more and will be able help others on their conquest of highend cards.

OH! Almost forgot to add, let's stay away from Creative products when it comes to Hi-Fi solutions.  I mean.. they're pretty much the reason why I'm discontent and hassled with finding the 'perfect' card.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #16 –
Quote
Please don't let this turn into an M-Audio thread.  I don't want an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 because RicardoMontaner claims his A2496 was 'smeary':

http://www.3dss-forums.com/cgi-bin/wwwthre...b=5&o=14&fpart=

For those of you interested, RicardoMontaner actually goes through some mods in this thread, and if your a 'techy' it's certainly 'CAP'tivating.


Do note that this guy is trying to mod his soundcard to sound like his modded cd-player. There is nothing wrong in that, but also, it has nothing to do with transparent reproduction of signals.
Having a bass-heavy, modded sacd deck and a bass-heavy soundcard is fine for him - apparently that's the way he likes his music. That doesn't mean you will enjoy it as much.

Very worrying would be this quote (from your linked page): "almost no bass output; very easy to tell with bookshelf sized speakers". He might have been better off buying good speakers than modding his expensive equipment to squeeze some bass out of bookshelve size boxes.

Quote
...I'd really like to bypass the kmixer, and from what I understand the drivers developed by RME do, but I want to be 100% sure!


Sorry. I'm not sure either. Although it is very interesting I'm also too tired to read into it

Quote
OH! Almost forgot to add, let's stay away from Creative products when it comes to Hi-Fi solutions.  I mean.. they're pretty much the reason why I'm discontent and hassled with finding the 'perfect' card.


Have you had an Audigy2? I mean, I haven't, but judging from measurements it seems inappropriate to stall it in the same category as the sbLive and such. But I'll stop about it... fair enough, I agree we were talking insane quality here. Creative just doesn't provide the clear control surfaces to tune all settings to perfection.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #17 –
You stated that an important use in your soundcard (very important, in fact) was the abiltiy to play back DVDs.  To this note, make sure that your sound card supports front and rear output (most companies will list it as Dolby 5.1 compliant, and it will have two analog outputs, one for the front speakers, one for the back).  Another thing that you might note is that, since you're using your soundcard with analog equipment, a bit-perfect sound is a moot point.  Noise and definition are going to be problems that you'll notice, if you notice even that.  Sound cards have gotten phenominally better in recent years, and anything in the $200-300 range should give you great performance and quality.  I still say that the M-Audio revolution or the Audigy 2 (get the one with the external break-out box, it minimalizes noise and gives you a more convinient way to plug your components into your computer) would be your best choice.  Both support surround-sound systems, both have very high quality, and both are going to give you the least hassle during setup and use.  Personally, I'd chose the Revolution for a permanently positioned system.  You'll only have to reach around to the back of your box once, so it's not that great an inconvenience to not have the plugs in the front, and it offers a broad range of features, including digital output for your DVDs, which I don't believe the Audigy 2 offers (I could be wrong, not in the mood to check).  The Audigy, however, will offer you the break-out box (provided you buy the card with one), which is connected to the sound card via cable, and basically puts the sound card's connectors on the top of your desk, very convenient.  Both offer comparable SNR and outputs, and both support digital and analog output.  The final decision, of course, is yours, but I believe that the Revolution would be your best choice.  Also, I'd check and see which company has the best customer support.  In my previous dealings with Creative, I've pretty much been left to my own devices.  In other words, they couldn't care less about their customers.  If you don't mind getting support from other users in usenet newsgroups, then go for it.  I'm not sure about M-Audio, I've never dealt with them, but you might want to ask around.

You also noted insane quality, and Patsoe noted that Creative's control panels were....lacking.  And they are, to be true.  But I'm not aware of any driver set that allows you a full-featured EQ and toys such as that.  Most of the time, that's left to a separate component.  I guess I'm wondering what "fine tuning" Patsoe was talking about...

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #18 –
No... actually.. it's not that important.  I mean, as of right now I'm on an Audigy 1, which i plan to keep for games and DVDs (if I want to 'feel' a, I'll watch it with the HT system, not on the computer... no.).  Therefore, this card would be dedicated specifically to music, nothing more and nothing less.  That being said, I have absolutely no intention of buying an Audigy2, no way no how. I have pondered the purchase of a Revolution, but for some reason I just doesn't 'feel' right.  I'm sure it's a Hell'fa card for the money, but like I said, I'd like something a bit better than the 'average'.  No as far as reaching around the box to change connections... no more please......dedicated music card = no more reaching around... thankyou!

Here's a question for silver_cpu.... if your so prompt to offer me a Revolution or Audigy2, why didn't you buy one???

I think I'm going to get the RME... it's not THE BEST... but it's only a few steps behind.  I wish I could have gotten somemore input on the Echo Mia, it looked very promising... but it's balanced outputs turned me off.

Nevertheless, I still have a while before I dig-into my pockets for the RME, so now is the time (like they say) to 'speak now or forever hold your peace'.

Keep posting! 

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #19 –
silver_cpu: I didn't mean things like equalizing. But Creative, positioning the Audigy2 as a semi-pro card, have not included explicit settings e.g. to fix sample rate or such. That perhaps doesn't lessen the listening pleasure, but well, I'm not just a music lover, I'm definitely an equipment lover too... and then it's nice to feel you're in control of things.

Bubbagums, I don't know much about the Mia - well, I know that it delivers good measurement characteristics. I'm sure however that you don't have to use balanced connections with it. If you want unbalanced connections, you can pull the cold connector to ground.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #20 –
Quote
It seems that with the latest drivers, the resampling at 44.1 KHz is either gone or very high quality (I can't confirm by myself).

I guess it isn't gone (it is hardware thing - EMU10k2 DSP operates at 48kHz only).

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #21 –
Quote
I guess it isn't gone (it is hardware thing - EMU10k2 DSP operates at 48kHz only).

Still, it can play 96 KHz and 192 KHz without resampling, so I guess that 44.1 KHz coud be possible too.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #22 –
Quote
I don't want an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 because RicardoMontaner claims his A2496 was 'smeary':

That guy is clueless.

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #23 –
Quote
The resampled signal coming out of kmixer for M-audio cards seem to have a SNR of about 95db compared to the original signal when run in high quality mode.


It's more like 85 or 90 dB: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default....design_29if.asp , end of page, http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default....design_9p2g.asp

Quote
The self noise and distortion on the analog putputs for all the mentioned M-audio cards is around <002% which roughly means at -95db... Since this is at the same level as the distortions introduced by kmixer I would not expect that an analog measurement especially in loop back mode will show much of a difference


Wrong, kmixer resampling is readily detectable in an analog measurement. Verified in case of my TB Santa Cruz. You know, 85<95.

Quote
This does not mean you might not be able to hear a difference since the noise is statistical. You can still understand a news report in a radio station that is not tuned in correctly but it will not sound as clear as a correctly tuned station. Some people can hear these differences.


This is not the case. In case there would be some noise added, it is same kind as the card's noise floor, and little amplitude, since it's hard (impossible for me) to detect looking at its spectrum. It would be statistically very similar.

Quote
In any case these cards really only provide clean 15 bits of resolution.


Nope. 15*6.02=90.3 dB. These cards easily get up to 92-93 dB of dynamic range including dither, at loopback mode (line-in in these cards adds noise, real figures would be slightly better), in 16 bit mode. In 24 bit mode, they easily surpass the 96 dB barrier of dynamic range in loopback mode. These cards give more like 16-17 bits of resolution.

Quote
A good outboard DAC can provide 19-20 bits of clean resolution.


Some very good professional balanced DACs and sound cards reach 19 bit (114 dB) of dynamic range. Very few of them, if any, reach the 20 bit (120 dB) level. I'd say it's impossible in practice to get past the 18 bit level without balanced equipment.

Anyway, true 16 bit of resolution is more than enough for just listening at anywhere that is not an acoustically silenced lab (ambient noise < 25 dB).

RME digi96/8 PST

Reply #24 –
@Kike

I am not sure what you are referring to in your kmixer link and what you can measure with your TBSC. Isn't that a fixed 48Khz card where you get actual rate resampling from 44.1Khz-48Khz conversion. I am talking 44.1Khz - 44.1Khz running through kmixer on an M-audio DIO 24/96.  Have you ever measured that?

If you don't know what distortion kmixer adds to the signal how can you know that you can't hear this? I doubt whether the changes introduced by kmixer are of the same thermal noise nature as the noise in the DACs. Can you point to a location that verifies that?

I am not really looking at dynamic range but at THD+N. What is the most significant bit at which you can look at the output voltage of your DAC and tell me with 100% certainty what the bits where that produced it. I was under the impression that limit is THD+N or IM for complex sounds.

The values for THD+N on these cards is 0.002% at 24bit so my assumption was that means 15 clean bits in the best case?

We seem to agree on the 19-20 bits with outboard DACs. 

Cheers

    Thomas