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Playing 24 bits FLAC, but output format data is still 16 bits
Harukstz
post Feb 28 2013, 14:48
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I'm testing some 24 bits FLAC files in foobar v1.1.18 and it plays fine but in Playback>Output, Output format data is still 16 bit and it can not be changed as it is grayed out. My device is correctly selected AudioBox 22VSL. (file's properties: Bits per sample : 24)

how can I confirm 24 bits is being played and not down sampled 16 bits?

sound card: http://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-22VSL
OS: Win 7 SP1

Thanks

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EpicForever
post Feb 28 2013, 15:23
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Bit depth is 32bit - as handled by DirectSound in Windows 7. Foobar sends 24 bit data to DirectSound engine of your OS and everything there is handled by DS/device drivers with 32bit precision or lower (like 24bit), accordingly to your soundcard specification and capabilities. Assuming you are using DirectSound output of course smile.gif
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Kohlrabi
post Feb 28 2013, 17:36
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QUOTE (Harukstz @ Feb 28 2013, 14:48) *
how can I confirm 24 bits is being played and not down sampled 16 bits?
Can't you hear it?!? Seriously, the real question is: If you can't hear the difference, why do you care? To avoid having you come up with arguments, I will just tell you that the difference is inaudible.


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Andreasvb
post Feb 28 2013, 18:13
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Also, if he could even hear the full range of 24 bit he would probably be dead by now. wink.gif

http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-1...e-myth-exploded [ 24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded! ]


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db1989
post Feb 28 2013, 19:06
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Look, whilst I donít want anyone to claim that 24-bit is audible vs. 16-bit and I somewhat appreciate the pre-emptive finger-waving, the fact is that fb2k should play whichever bit-depth it is instructed to play if the userís hardware supports it. Piling on with objections that are tangentially related at best doesnít help to clarify the original, technical, question.

So:
QUOTE (Harukstz @ Feb 28 2013, 13:48) *
in Playback>Output, Output format data is still 16 bit and it can not be changed as it is grayed out. [Ö] How can I confirm 24 bits is being played and not down sampled 16 bits?
Well, since the output format is grayed out, itís unlikely to be sending 24 bits. The potential reasons could be manifold, and without a little more information, weíre not likely to guess with any good probability of success. Which output method are you using? How is your soundcard configured on the level of its own drivers in the Control Panel or wherever? Something else might be restricting the output parameters before fb2k can ever have a chance to set them.
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Kohlrabi
post Feb 28 2013, 21:46
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Since the question was already answered by
QUOTE (EpicForever @ Feb 28 2013, 15:23) *
Bit depth is 32bit - as handled by DirectSound in Windows 7. Foobar sends 24 bit data to DirectSound engine of your OS and everything there is handled by DS/device drivers with 32bit precision or lower (like 24bit), accordingly to your soundcard specification and capabilities. Assuming you are using DirectSound output of course smile.gif
I took the liberty to stray from the purely technical problem to the educational one. DirectSound output will gray out/disable the bit-depth drop down menu on Vista and later, since output is fixed to 32bit float, as mentioned.

To answer the real question
QUOTE (Harukstz @ Feb 28 2013, 14:48) *
how can I confirm 24 bits is being played and not down sampled 16 bits?
Record the output of your soundcard with a software/hardware capbable of recording at 24bit depth, and check the dynamic range.

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Mar 1 2013, 07:42


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db1989
post Feb 28 2013, 22:51
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Or just use one of the bitstreaming output methods. Again, no noticeable benefit in quality, but they’ll deliver the signal as-is if everything is working.

Thanks for elaborating on the earlier explanation. smile.gif

This post has been edited by db1989: Feb 28 2013, 22:52
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EpicForever
post Feb 28 2013, 23:01
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@ Kohlrabi:
Not exactly answered. I have checked how it looks on mine PC. I don't have any bit depth selected. Field is empty and grayed out, and below it there's text "Bit depth will be automatically chosen fo selected device" or something similar. If he has "16 bit" that is selected but grayed out it may mean that he really has output fixed at 16 bit. Additionally "Always dither" checkbox is unchecked and grayed out here, on mine PC.
Other thing is that I think that everyone deserve to get what they paid for. He paid for 24bit soundcard. Then why he should gave up when he probably has only 16 bit? I know that it might be useless in case of audibility - but our technology achieved this level, then why we should stick with 16 bit? OK, 32 bit is definitely to much for daily listening (file size increasement vs. perceived sound quality gains is completely inadequat) , but why not 24 bit if it gives you nice feeling that you have something that should sound really OK and gives you possibility to reach highest consumer standards in digital audio quality? If DTS-HD MA soundtrack is available on new BluRay disc on my collection I always prefere it over standard DTS or AC-3. Just because I can play better quality soundtrack. And here's the same situation. He has 24 bit file and 24 bit capable soundcard - why "degrade" it to 16 bit if it can be played with full available quality?

This post has been edited by EpicForever: Feb 28 2013, 23:03
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Kohlrabi
post Mar 1 2013, 07:50
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QUOTE (EpicForever @ Feb 28 2013, 23:01) *
@ Kohlrabi: If he has "16 bit" that is selected but grayed out it may mean that he really has output fixed at 16 bit. Additionally "Always dither" checkbox is unchecked and grayed out here, on mine PC.
Since this can be neither DirectSound output, which is fixed to float32, nor WASAPI, which enables that checkbox, I guess the OP uses either ASIO or Kernel Streaming? Obviously we are missing some information here. But thanks for educating me, too. smile.gif

QUOTE (EpicForever @ Feb 28 2013, 23:01) *
He has 24 bit file and 24 bit capable soundcard - why "degrade" it to 16 bit if it can be played with full available quality?
If it's an easy fix, I'd go ahead, but I also won't go on trying to fix something that does not matter. I just stopped worrying and love the Redbook, and I can concentrate on buying music instead of hardware.

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Mar 1 2013, 07:55


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Harukstz
post Mar 11 2013, 18:32
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in Output settings there is only Null Output and Primary Sound Driver (onboard) and PreSonus, so I'm not sure how to set it to DirectSound. besides I don't think it's going through Microsoft's DirectSound because this audio card has dedicated ASIO driver.

also I don't get the "can you tell the difference" argument. some people say they hear no difference between mp3 320kbps and FLAC. so why not treat them the same? I tend to agree 24 bits probably makes more sense in the recording phase than listening, but I digress.

I just want to be clear if Foobar actually supports 24 bits playback or not.

This post has been edited by Harukstz: Mar 11 2013, 18:34
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db1989
post Mar 11 2013, 18:36
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foobar2000 certainly does support outputting 24 bits.

Why you seem unable to attain this with your specific hardware and configuration is a question that remains to be answered (by users who can guess, unlike me).
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XMagnesiumX
post Mar 21 2013, 16:09
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QUOTE (Harukstz @ Feb 28 2013, 14:48) *
how can I confirm 24 bits is being played and not down sampled 16 bits?


Hi,

Actually you can test the output bitrate relatively easily. blink.gif
My method for testing the output baitrate of Foobar is as follows:
A] You must set the digital volume slider in FOOBAR to -100DB (-100DB volume attenuation- objectively speaking IS NOT SILENCE when outputting 24bit to an audio hardware capable of >100DB SNR).
B] You must disable dithering in the output settings of FOOBAR.
C] You must make sure that your audio hardware has a SOUND-TO-NOISE ratio higher the 100DB (My ODAC has a ~110DB SNR for example).
D] Then you connect your (headphones+amp)/(speakers) to your audio hardware and put a music on playback (preferable a LOUD mastered one) and set the ANALOG VOLUME high enough until you hear "something" (Basically you compensate with the ANALOG VOLUME CONTROL OVER THE -100DB loss at the digital domain).
+IF the "Something" that you hear is the Music (it will contain a LOT of noise and distortion) then you have a 24Bit output from Foobar (as long as soundcard ASIO/OS are also outputting at least 24Bit).
+IF the "Something" that you hear is just noise/distortion without any traces of the music then Foobar is outputting 16Bit (as long as soundcard ASIO/OS are also outputting at least 24Bit)

Warning: Please be careful with any other sounds coming from your OS. Please disable the windows sounds and exit any application that might make sound through the speakers.
Any sounds non related to foobar will PRODUCE a "DEAFENING BLAST" when played through the BOOSTED ANALOG VOLUME. sad.gif sad.gif


Regards,

This post has been edited by XMagnesiumX: Mar 21 2013, 16:39
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lvqcl
post Mar 21 2013, 16:22
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QUOTE (XMagnesiumX @ Mar 21 2013, 19:09) *
A] You must set the digital volume slider in FOOBAR to -100DB.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=68134

This post has been edited by lvqcl: Mar 21 2013, 16:23
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Propheticus
post Mar 21 2013, 18:41
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If you select your soundcard which as you say has ASIO drivers, foobar2000 negotiates with the ASIO drivers and uses the bit-depth they report. Bit depth has to be configured in your ASIO configuration panel.
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XMagnesiumX
post Mar 21 2013, 19:11
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QUOTE (Propheticus @ Mar 21 2013, 18:41) *
If you select your soundcard which as you say has ASIO drivers, foobar2000 negotiates with the ASIO drivers and uses the bit-depth they report. Bit depth has to be configured in your ASIO configuration panel.


Actually if you use the Digital volume control inside Foobar then the ASIO driver gets less then 24Bit.
Also some components may interfere with the Foobar to ASIO bit stream.
What I"m saying that setting 24BIt in the ASIO isn't enough.
You also have to make sure that no components (like a 16bit based equalizer) and no digital volume reduction are used in FOOBAR in order to get the desired 24BIT stream to the DAC.
AND then comes the test that I"ve suggested for checking whether you have a real 24bit output to the DAC (more then 96DB dynamic range from the analog outs).

This post has been edited by XMagnesiumX: Mar 21 2013, 19:14
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db1989
post Mar 21 2013, 20:22
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QUOTE (XMagnesiumX @ Mar 21 2013, 18:11) *
Actually if you use the Digital volume control inside Foobar then the ASIO driver gets less then 24Bit.
No. A volume-reduced signal will have less than the full 24 bits of dynamic range, but the actual signal output to the device will not be lowered from 24 bits if that is what foobar2000 is configured to send.

You seem to be completely confusing 24 bits of dynamic range with 24 bits of signal. It is the latter than the OP is concerned about. The former follows naturally if nothing untoward is done to the signal and is merely an afterthought to the actual subject of this thread.

This post has been edited by db1989: Mar 21 2013, 20:22
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XMagnesiumX
post Mar 21 2013, 20:55
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See Post #12

This post has been edited by XMagnesiumX: Mar 21 2013, 21:47
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db1989
post Mar 21 2013, 21:19
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So you’re admitting that you were wrong in a roundabout way with an unnecessary verbose explanation of something that I already acknowledged, perhaps in an attempt to obscure the former fact. OK.

You’re still quoting yourself saying that “the ASIO Driver gets less than 24 bit”, and that is still wrong. As I already explained, the driver is still piped a 24-bit signal, but assuming a 6 dB attenuation, the most significant bit would consistently be 0. That’s still a 24-bit signal. Whether it has 23 bits of dynamic range or anything else is irrelevant to the hardware and to the format of data that it receives. I already said all this, too.

My point is that, as far as I can understand, this thread is about sending a signal of a specific bandwidth over ASIO – not about the actual contents of said signal. In that context, I think Propheticus may be the winner.

This post has been edited by db1989: Mar 21 2013, 21:22
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CaperRocks
post Jul 5 2013, 22:18
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I am new Harukstz and was wondering if you got foobar to display 24 bit on your stereo
I am having a similar issue with foobar asio output and a Asus sound card (the volume on the player works also but should not be) however I do have media monkey showing properly
and working with 24 bits out
I would like to use foobar as it has many features I like
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