Whats is the worst mastered CD [your opinions] ? Options

[Axon]

IIRC, one physical limitation was in the ability of TTs to track very loud parts of LPs (e.g., the infamous cannon shots of the "1812 Overture"). I presume this is less of an issue with today's TT/cart combos, but couldn't say definitively, as I rarely use that technology these days.

It's still an issue for a lot of carts, but it was more or less alleviated by never hitting that level again

Well, then, that means, as Hancoque said, that vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs -- i.e., the hottest CDs will be hotter than any LP can handle, unless the waveforms are tweaked or level is lowered...in which case the LP is still not as 'hot' as the CD! I don't think he meant 'you can never master an LP at the level of a CD'. As long as the CD is mastered within the level range that LP can do, you can do a 'straightforward' transfer.

Well, yeah, but more fundamentally, "level" means something completely different here. Apples and oranges. CD "heat" means how close the signal gets to 0dbFS, and almost always is modulated through compression and limiting; vinyl "heat" means how high the modulation peaks are relative to NAB 0db (5cm/s?), and is almost always modulated through straight up gain.

As a matter of comparison, though, saying that a CD is "hotter" than the vinyl implicitly means that compression/limiting is being compared here, and not gain. The differences in gain between all the different components of the vinyl system are such that saying that the vinyl sounds louder/softer than the CD is sort of meaningless.

This post has been edited by Axon: Sep 9 2008, 18:49

[vize84]

I have the Death Magnetic CD in APE+CUE, RG scan below.

So you own the actual CD? The leak has an album-gain of -13.50db.

Each track on your version seems to be around 2db "cooler" than the leak. Hopefully it's not as fatiguing.

I've just analyzed the same version... and same results

Even if TDTNC still sounds distorted at the end, is better than preovious leaked version

I listen to it more carefully... It sounds like pure s..t hopefully is a promo cd

[Hancoque]

To sum it up: There are now three versions of Death Magnetic that don't seem to be a transcode:

• LAME 3.97 V2, album gain -13.38 dB
• LAME 3.97 CBR 320 kbps, album gain -12.49 dB
• APE/CUE, album gain -11.16 dB

I have compared them via ABX and could differentiate between them (ReplayGain enabled). The first version has the most distortion and it's very annoying. The second version sounds much better in this regard. The third version is a slight improvement over the second version. The production itself seems to be the same on all three versions, only the amount of compression/limiting varies. Even the third version has audible distortion, but it's much less annoying than the first version, but still too much in my opinion.

This post has been edited by Hancoque: Sep 9 2008, 22:18

[krabapple]

Well, then, that means, as Hancoque said, that vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs -- i.e., the hottest CDs will be hotter than any LP can handle, unless the waveforms are tweaked or level is lowered...in which case the LP is still not as 'hot' as the CD! I don't think he meant 'you can never master an LP at the level of a CD'. As long as the CD is mastered within the level range that LP can do, you can do a 'straightforward' transfer.

Well, yeah, but more fundamentally, "level" means something completely different here. Apples and oranges. CD "heat" means how close the signal gets to 0dbFS, and almost always is modulated through compression and limiting; vinyl "heat" means how high the modulation peaks are relative to NAB 0db (5cm/s?), and is almost always modulated through straight up gain.

Granted, but digital 'heat' is not just whether 0dB is reached, but how often peaks are at or near 0dB. You know, like Iggy Pop remastering his CD to be always 'in the red'

This is certainly going to impact how easily a digital master can be transferred to LP, with playability intact.

[Axon]

I have compared them via ABX and could differentiate between them (ReplayGain enabled). The first version has the most distortion and it's very annoying. The second version sounds much better in this regard. The third version is a slight improvement over the second version. The production itself seems to be the same on all three versions, only the amount of compression/limiting varies. Even the third version has audible distortion, but it's much less annoying than the first version, but still too much in my opinion.

Lars has got to be f*cking with us. He's punishing file sharers for their transgressions. I'm sure of it.

Granted, but digital 'heat' is not just whether 0dB is reached, but how often peaks are at or near 0dB. You know, like Iggy Pop remastering his CD to be always 'in the red' ohmy.gif This is certainly going to impact how easily a digital master can be transferred to LP, with playability intact

Nope! That's what I'm saying in my vinyl mastering thread. It very well may not.

This post has been edited by Axon: Sep 9 2008, 22:30

[Hancoque]

Lars has got to be f*cking with us. He's punishing file sharers for their transgressions. I'm sure of it.

That came to my mind as well, but I don't see how this would benefit the band or label. If people complain about the bad mastering before release and tell others to not buy the album because it sucks quality-wise it would mean less sales.

[Axon]

Unless people keep dissing LAME's sound quality at high bitrates, which is done astonishingly often, especially with this album.

[/mnt]

Christ, I just heard a lossless copy of The Day That Never Comes, its still painfully awfull to hear. The track gain was -13.84. Jesus t***y f***ing christ, thats just plain bad and unprofessional mastering, if it was the offical release. And this Ted Jensen, won a grammy award for mastering ..................why?.

Anyway the offical music video of the song is on youtube, along with bad acting to go with the piss poor sound. Am shocked that alot of youtubers have bitched about the sound quality, instead of having a flame war with Megadeth fans .

This post has been edited by /mnt: Sep 10 2008, 00:55

[hushypushy]

I've been thinking recently that perhaps the best way to stop the loudness war is for CDs to continue to get more and more clipressed until the distortion is so bad that everyone notices it. So when Metallica releases an album which is virtually unlistenable to, they are raising the profile of the problem of poor mastering.

Just a more positive way of looking things!

Well, at least your glass is half full, and I give you props for that. But you're wrong. I've read some things here and there on the internet, and I see a lot of Metallica fans mocking "audiophiles" and telling them to, essentially, 'shut up and listen' to the album and forget about the sound quality (which, incidentally, they think is pretty good). And I've read some favorable reviews by large publications (e.g. Rolling Stone) gushing with praise over the music, with absolutely zero mention of sound quality.

I do my computer listening with Logitech Z-2300's which tend to sweeten the sound of very compressed music for some reason (compared to my "real" amp + speaker setups), and even then, I found Death Magnetic to be completely unlistenable. Shrill, no dynamics, and just like every other Metallica album, you still wouldn't know there's a bassist by listening to the songs.

The only good news that I can see is that we can put this album right up there next to Californication under "famous Rick Rubin produced albums with ear destroying mastering." Ted Jensen, YOU SUCK and you deserve to lose your job and have your Grammy rescinded. My dog is deaf and retarded and she could master Metallica better than you.

[krabapple]

Granted, but digital 'heat' is not just whether 0dB is reached, but how often peaks are at or near 0dB. You know, like Iggy Pop remastering his CD to be always 'in the red' ohmy.gif This is certainly going to impact how easily a digital master can be transferred to LP, with playability intact

Nope! That's what I'm saying in my vinyl mastering thread. It very well may not.

As you yourself have said, it will require changing level, or 'tweaking' EQ. I call that an 'impact on how easily a digital master can be transferred".

[Fandango]

Anyway the offical music video of the song is on youtube, along with bad acting to go with the piss poor sound.

"Shoot 'em! Shoot 'em!" (edit: Metallica, of course. I should have watched the whole video before posting. Makes note to self: "Never watch Metallica videos in the first place.")

This post has been edited by Fandango: Sep 11 2008, 18:07

[razer]

The new Metallica album's mastering pisses me off to no end. They finally had a shot of doing an album right, and they failed, again.

[/mnt]

Anyway the offical music video of the song is on youtube, along with bad acting to go with the piss poor sound.

"Shoot 'em! Shoot 'em!" (edit: Metallica, of course. I should have watched the whole video before posting. Makes note to self: "Never watch Metallica videos in the first place.")

LOL

Oh god, i miss Beavis and Butthead. Seeing them watching and making fun of music videos was just funny. Espesaly when they were watching Soundgarden's Black Hole Sun music video and Pantera's This Love music video.

It would kinda funny if Beavis and Butthead was still running, and they could re-use the that joke when Beavis (Metallica fan) did not know that it was Metallica on the One music video. And use it on any mordern Metallica video music video.

This post has been edited by /mnt: Sep 11 2008, 19:34

[Hancoque]

And -13.38 dB it is. So, the retail release is actually the worst sounding of the three versions that leaked during the last days.

P.S.: And don't be fooled by the ReplayGain values of the MP3 release. The tracks have just been attenuated by 2 dB.

This post has been edited by Hancoque: Sep 12 2008, 05:02

[me7]

I just easily ABXed the Promo version from the retail version and my ears are far from golden. I'm not sure whether these differences are caused by dynamic compression only.

[Hancoque]

I just easily ABXed the Promo version from the retail version

Ditto. The differences I found are that the promo version has more treble and less distortion. Overall I found no weaknesses in the promo version compared to the retail version.

[Fandango]

I just easily ABXed the Promo version from the retail version

Ditto. The differences I found are that the promo version has more treble and less distortion. Overall I found no weaknesses in the promo version compared to the retail version.

That's unbelievably stupid. As if someone had requested it on the last minute: "Man, the promo wasn't loud enough."

[/mnt]

Its a offical, Death Magnetic is the worst mastered CD i have ever own. I just brought the offical retail CD and the album gain is -13.38. It makes Hypotize's mastering on pair with RATM's debut album.



It sounds like it was recorded from Bono's stereo . The music on the album is or would be awesome and alot better then some of their modern stuff, but the sound on it is just piss poor.

This post has been edited by /mnt: Sep 12 2008, 15:37

[shadowking]

Yeah shame. Bad for the band, bad for everybody else now there is a new 'standard' (read: low) in loudness to live up to. Its all because of you industry people. Your lack of standards and bad tastes. When I got into audio coding in 2003 there first challenge was normalising audio - not to bully the softer tracks ! . Replaygain was quick and easy. Industry people : What have you done ? Its all your fault at the end of the day blame mp3, this and that .. Its all your fault. To those in other forums still denying this problem and like 'artistic' freedom of volume - you are just as guilty.

This post has been edited by shadowking: Sep 12 2008, 15:54

[me7]

I heard a rumor about the digital download version from missionmetallica having a slightly better RG value than the CD. Anyone here bought it?

[Hancoque]

P.S.: And don't be fooled by the ReplayGain values of the MP3 release. The tracks have just been attenuated by 2 dB.

[Rfi]

There are definitely two different masterings around.

This is from the first two minutes of Cyanide.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2vuwwtu.jpg

From what I understand, the bottom one is from the European promo CD. The top is the retail U.S. Both are from lossless sources.

This post has been edited by Rfi: Sep 12 2008, 19:07

[Axon]

Death Magnetic mastering engineer passes the buck!

http://www.metallicabb.com/index.php?showtopic=85317

I’m certainly sympathetic to your reaction, I get to slam my head against that brick wall every day. In this case the mixes were already brick walled before they arrived at my place. Suffice it to say I would never be pushed to overdrive things as far as they are here. Believe me I’m not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else.

Probably means the vinyl is hosed too.

[Hancoque]

Yes, the promo version is definitely the better one. But the download version does not equal the promo version, not that somebody thinks that because of the "better" ReplayGain values.

Death Magnetic mastering engineer passes the buck!
[...]
Probably means the vinyl is hosed too.

Oh jeez, if I'm paying 70 € for nothing, I'm really pissed off! But at least Ted Jensen is admitting the problem. That is *the* argument against all those people who say "we audiophiles" are only imagining things. I really hope that the resistance against the album will be high enough to convince someone to issue a re-release or even a release targeted at audiophiles like a DVD-A release.

Edit: There's a petition for a re-mix or remaster.

This post has been edited by Hancoque: Sep 12 2008, 19:58

[Axon]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have vinyl clipping on Death Magnetic.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...p;postcount=531