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Topic: Ringing problems found with Nero AAC (Read 6123 times) previous topic - next topic
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Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

By playing with ::streaming:: profile of Nero AAC/MP4 encoder, I've noticed some obvious ringing problems with this sample. With higher setting, the problem is progressively reduced, but doesn't disappear. Bitrate seems to be very -and maybe too- low for this sample : less than 100 kbps for ::streaming:: and less than 200 kbps for highest ::transcoding::

I ABXed with success and without problem this sample, through foobar (and replaygained files).
::Streaming:: is really awful
::Normal:: is better, but disappointing
::Extreme:: is still obvious
::Audiophile:: is slightly annoying
::Transcoding:: is just perceptible - but that's not acceptable according to the targetted quality

I noticed too an awful encoding of the noise (introduction) : I would described it as a big flanging with ::streaming:: and reduced one with :normal:: setting


Encoder : aacenc.dll 2.5.5.8 & aac.dll 2.5.6.3
Nero version : 6.0.19
Soundcard : Terratec DMX6fire
ABX software : foobar2000 0.71 beta 2 ; ABX comparator with replaygain and ASIO 24+8 bits output
Headphone : BeyerDynamic DT-531
Amp : Onkyo Ampli-Tuner R-A5

Sample (ofr lossless format) is uploaded :
http://membres.lycos.fr/guruboolez/AUDIO/s...r_ahead_aac.piz  (rename .piz as .zip)

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #1 –
Quote
By playing with ::streaming:: profile of Nero AAC/MP4 encoder, I've noticed some obvious ringing problems with this sample. With higher setting, the problem is progressively reduced, but doesn't disappear. Bitrate seems to be very -and maybe too- low for this sample : less than 100 kbps for ::streaming:: and less than 200 kbps for highest ::transcoding::

I ABXed with success and without problem this sample, through foobar (and replaygained files).
::Streaming:: is really awful
::Normal:: is better, but disappointing
::Extreme:: is still obvious
::Audiophile:: is slightly annoying
::Transcoding:: is just perceptible - but that's not acceptable according to the targetted quality

I noticed too an awful encoding of the noise (introduction) : I would described it as a big flanging with ::streaming:: and reduced one with :normal:: setting


Encoder : aacenc.dll 2.5.5.8 & aac.dll 2.5.6.3
Nero version : 6.0.19
Soundcard : Terratec DMX6fire
ABX software : foobar2000 0.71 beta 2 ; ABX comparator with replaygain and ASIO 24+8 bits output
Headphone : BeyerDynamic DT-531
Amp : Onkyo Ampli-Tuner R-A5

Sample (ofr lossless format) is uploaded :
http://membres.lycos.fr/guruboolez/AUDIO/s...r_ahead_aac.piz   (rename .piz as .zip)

Same problems
My sound hardware: Creative's Audigy 2 ;)
My music encodings: Nero AAC Codec 2.6.2.0 Profiles:Transparent,Extreme

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #2 –
Looks like an issue similar to 'sm01' case - thanks, I've got the sample and I hope the issue will be cleared out in next web version.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #3 –
It would be interesting to know how this sample fares using the new aacenc32.dll v2.5.8.2 if someone could spare the time...

I would do it myself, but I don't have the hearing ability

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #4 –
I've just tried with 2.5.8.2 encoder. Though I haven't compare output files with those produced with 2.5.5.8, I'm sure that the annoyance is lowered. Another similar problem, with a sample I called cello (see the classical suit I've uploaded few weeks ago), showed progress. But... there are still artifacts - ringing.
I've just ABXed without problem :
- streaming
- normal
- extreme

For the two last VBR profile (audiophile & transcoding), it was difficult. I therefore focused my attention on the second half of the sample (three last seconds), and it wasn't to difficult to had this bad feeling with the encoded file : 13/16 on replaygained files with foobar2000 on transcoding profile.

Here, the biggest problem is gone - but there's still a good margin for progress.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #5 –
I've tried with iTunes AAC encoder, to check if this sample is a general killer for AAC :
- 128 kbps : bad distortions
- 160 kbps : audible distortions, still annoying for me
- 192 kbps : bad ABX results (10/16 was my best), on begining or end of the sample.

Just after I failed on 192 kbps, I've tested a last time Nero Transcoding : 15/16. It was very easy in comparison.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #6 –
Quote
I've tried with iTunes AAC encoder...

Could you perhaps check 224kbps AAC as well? It seems that most people with good hearing  say they can hear minor difference at 192kbps AAC, but none at 224kbps.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #7 –
Quote
Quote
I've tried with iTunes AAC encoder...

Could you perhaps check 224kbps AAC as well? It seems that most people with good hearing  say they can hear minor difference at 192kbps AAC, but none at 224kbps.

I failed with 192 kbps on this sample ; there's no need to test at 224 kbps here. I've ABXed with success QT up to 320 kbps on harpsichord, and more easily on samples like castanets.wav at 320 kbps.
The difference between 192 and 224 on common music is very individual, matter of perception. Some people are happy with 128, some others will find irritating problems at 256.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #9 –
Quote
Hmm.. Guru: could you rate these 3 Cello samples. I'd like to see what do you think of these.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/extra/Cello_test.zip

7500 MB, on a 56K :/
Thanks...
I download them, and will probably go to bed then.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #10 –
Quote
7500 MB, on a 56K :/
Thanks...
I download them, and will probably go to bed then.

Not quite 7500MB, 7500KB rather, but sorry anyway..
I forgot that you are still on dial-up..
Juha Laaksonheimo

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #11 –
Mozilla crashes at 90%, and is not able to resume the download. Very lucky this night 

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #12 –
I know that I couldn't sleep before I tried these samples.
This cello recording is terribly precise. Therefore, the strings are really grainy, sharp, and natural sound of the baroque cello played here by Bruno Cocset is naturally distorted, with inner-ringing.
Nevertheless, if an encoder adds its own ringing, I generally could ear that, spontaneously (it's more difficult on ABX).
Here, I'm simply KO (tired... I don't think so). I couldn't ear any difference between the three files, and if I compare them to the original, I couldn't catch somehing odd as basis for an ABX test.

Is it a trap? Three time the same file (OK, I know the answer - thanks to fb2k bit comparator)?

I will try again tomorrow, but it would be very difficult.
What are these files correspond to?

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #13 –
Quote
Is it a trap?

Completely off-topic: Anyone read this line and immediately think of Admiral Ackbar, or am I reading just way too much Fark?

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #14 –
Quote
Is it a trap? Three time the same file (OK, I know the answer - thanks to fb2k bit comparator)?

It's not a trap.

Hmm.. I just realized that maybe you weren't talking about Cello sample when you said you have ABXed Nero transparent 15/16 (at least you said it has similar problems)? So if that's the case I gotta arrange you a new test. 
Juha Laaksonheimo

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #15 –
I talked about biniou.wav sample (and said that I didn't compare 2582 against 2858 encoding, so I can't be sure that progress were made, but that I compared directly encoding on cello [streaming], and here progress on ringing were sure).

Now, I'd like to know what's the difference between the three files you sent me.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #16 –
Quote
I talked about biniou.wav sample (and said that I didn't compare 2582 against 2858 encoding, so I can't be sure that progress were made, but that I compared directly encoding on cello [streaming], and here progress on ringing were sure).

Now, I'd like to know what's the difference between the three files you sent me.

Ok, hold on I'll create another test for you using biniou.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #17 –
Use OptimFrog, or MAC -insane, please.
And if I'm agree to DL your test files, I'd like to have answer to the question I asked. Thanks.

Ringing problems found with Nero AAC

Reply #18 –
Quote
Use OptimFrog, or MAC -insane, please.
And if I'm agree to DL your test files, I'd like to have answer to the question I asked. Thanks.

Sure, of course. I will tell you. But I'd like you to check the package I'm gonna create you in a little while first. But do not worry, I will of course tell you exactly what these are.
Juha Laaksonheimo