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Topic: Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound (Read 75035 times) previous topic - next topic
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Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound

Reply #200
It's more than mono vs. stereo, concerns over placement and room treatment were expressed as well.


All of them irrelevant to the question of whether Sean's original post provided what it claimed to provide which, were it true (which it ain't IMO), might be at least a reasonable criticism.

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I think the pressing issue that started all this defensive posturing over electrostatic speakers lies in the choice of the word "accurate".  I get the feeling that least some of the more overly-zealous fanatics don't like the insinuation that their highly prized speakers are inaccurate.  I have to  over the issues raised concerning scrim, however.


Yes, I think that is very likely the real problem people had.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound

Reply #201


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Since different designers design and optimise for different envirements there is actually nothing fair about a common envirement. It is inherently unfair unless all speakers in question are optimised for that envirement. You either optimise the space for each speaker or you compramise that speaker's performance. That is a pretty solid either/or proposition. That Sean doesn't have time to optimise his tests in this way does not make the tests fair. Fairness is not a function of convenience.


Do different loudspeaker companies or designers truly design and optimize their loudspeakers for different environments? Is this a true statement and how do we know what they are?


I think it is a true statement that other designers actually do listen to their products and evaluate them based on listening and then develope their designs further. Now, you need a room for that don't you? here is a little blurb on the ML evaluation room.
"First stop was the state of the art Martin Logan listening room. In this double-doored, tube trapped, fine-tuned room, products are evaluated for their sonic merits. The ancient ESL's you see on either sideof the reQuest ESL are there for training sessions also held in this room as well as around the facility. The room was built to reveal the slightest flaws and gains in performance of their products. They are true fanatics about the quality of their products from finish to function to final output!"
http://www.stereotimes.com/event020100.shtml


As I explained yesterday to someone over at WhatsBestForum, we design all of our loudspeakers to a design target that is based on anechoic measurements. The design target has no specific listening room in mind, because all  listening rooms are different. It's  not until the consumer has installed the speaker in their room that you can begin to adjust for the acoustical interaction between the loudspeaker and the room.


Interesting. So would it be fair to say that the best room for your speakers would be an anechoic chamber? Where you do your measurements? Or the room you do the listening evaluations? You point it out yourself, every room is different so your speakers will sound different in every room no? What room would give us the very very best sound from your flagship speakers?


So it would be unwise to optimize the loudspeaker for a specific room.  Instead they should design the speaker so it sounds good in as many rooms and positions as possible.




Now hold on here. I think you are making a hasty generalization.  All purpose and high performance do not always go hand in hand. I don't see how in a stab at a SOTA speaker a designer may make choices that would force certain rooms or room treatments be used with them.

This is done by optimizing the on and off-axis response so the direct and reflected sounds are neutral as you walk around the room. Then the problem comes down to mostly a low frequency one where the modal behavior of the room dominates the sound you hear.

We do validate the final design of our loudspeakers in a room but by then the design of the loudspeaker in 90% complete.

Cheers
Sean Olive
Audio Musings



That is fine Sean, that is your approach.

Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound

Reply #202
Well, the title of this thread it "Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound" and Sean posted details of a double blind listening test that shows precisely that: "Some Evidence".  He didn't make any claim of proof and the thread title mirrors the correct conclusion from that test so far as I can see.

The arguments about whether he should or should not have used stereo speakers are utterly beside the point here.  Whether or not the test would have been better or worse if stereo speakers had been used, the actual test as performed does indeed pretty much justify the claim of being "Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound".

It's more than mono vs. stereo, concerns over placement and room treatment were expressed as well.

I think the pressing issue that started all this defensive posturing over electrostatic speakers lies in the choice of the word "accurate".  I get the feeling that least some of the more overly-zealous fanatics don't like the insinuation that their highly prized speakers are inaccurate.  I have to  over the issues raised concerning scrim, however.



I think I may actually be the only owner of electrostatic speakers involved in this thread. but i am not particularly concerned about whether or not other people call them "accurate." I think I have made my opinions clear before on all concerns for accuracy. Let's just say i'm not even considering the question when I form my preferences. *My* speakers were not measured by Sean. I have no idea how "accurate" they are by whatever measure one wants to use for speakers. And I don't care. No, it is really about the choice of doing the tests in mono when the speakers are used in stereo. I went on to bring up things like source material and room interactions since those are significant variables in the real world.

Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound

Reply #203
That is fine Sean, that is your approach.

Sure.  When you get the opportunity to conduct your own series of tests you can come back and report, but don't get upset when your thread gets hijacked by people engaging in tangential discussions throwing stones.

I went on to bring up things like source material and room interactions since those are significant variables in the real world.

You've made your point numerous times and quite clearly.  Now it's time to move along.

Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound

Reply #204
That is fine Sean, that is your approach.

Sure.  When you get the opportunity to conduct your own series of tests you can come back and report, but don't get upset when your thread gets hijacked by people engaging in tangential discussions throwing stones.

I went on to bring up things like source material and room interactions since those are significant variables in the real world.

You've made your point numerous times and quite clearly.  Now it's time to move along.


I'll consider conducting my own series of tests should I decide to go into the business of designing speakers.   

I'm pretty sure there are some folks out there doing it differently than Sean and doing OK at it. That was the jist of my point. Sean was trying to say how *others* "should" be doing it.

If the tangent was so upsetting why let it go on all this time? Oh, maybe because it was actually interesting and some mods were actually contributing to the tangental part of the thread? But I know I know, it's my fault. 

Some New Evidence that Generation Y May Prefer Accurate Sound

Reply #205
If the tangent was so upsetting why let it go on all this time? Oh, maybe because it was actually interesting and some mods were actually contributing to the tangental part of the thread? But I know I know, it's my fault.

I seriously hope you don't think we're perusing every post immediately after they happen.

But yeah, we let it go for a while.  Now it's getting quite old watching the same point being argued over and over again.  I don't think you're the only one feeding the cycle, but you are the one doing it at this present moment while I'm online.

Sean is going to get back with me over where he would like to see this post heading.  Until then it will be closed for further discussion.