IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
What is so special about Vinyls? :), Help a student out with her project?
db1989
post Nov 1 2013, 09:17
Post #26





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 5141
Joined: 23-June 06
Member No.: 32180



QUOTE (jarsonic @ Oct 31 2013, 17:53) *
I know that in actuality CDs work in a similar fashion, but I think that it can feel like "magic" to have bumps and grooves in a piece of plastic translate into real, beautiful music.
Assuming this to be correct for the sake of argument, I could reply that itís even more magic to have pits and lands, which differ in not physically mirroring the eventual waveform that reaches your ears, nonetheless be translated to it through various stages of digital technology in integrated circuits whose inner mechanisms are and will remain a mystery to most people?

QUOTE
In an era of digital, cheap and disposable music, it is easy to consume, forget, and never engage with the music one listens to. Vinyl is one way to force you to do that, to cherish every aspect of a musician's art: the music, itself, the album imagery, photography, and the packaging. It is an artifact that you pick up in your hand, slide out of the sleeve, place on the turntable, drop the needle, and devote yourself to just sit back and listen.

How's that? wink.gif
As has been indicated, treating music as cheap and disposable is a societal or individual problem, not one of digital music, and doing this merely because of its form of delivery is exactly the same. I donít know about you, but I can still have almost transcendent reactions to my favourite songs even if Iím playing them off YouTube from a video in 240p. If I really want to listen to a song on the spot, I donít let the method of delivery bother me unless itís prohibitively terrible. Otherwise, itís digital, cheap, disposable, and no less valuable. Neither is it a reason for me to imply that myself or anyone else has an insincere approach to listening.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
cliveb
post Nov 1 2013, 09:36
Post #27


WaveRepair developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 824
Joined: 28-July 04
Member No.: 15845



QUOTE (Mach-X @ Oct 31 2013, 17:20) *
The distortion and pops and clicks force you to concentrate

I don't think it's the pops and clicks. Back in the day when my primary source was vinyl, pops and clicks irritated me. (And they do so even more these days, now that I'm used to clean digital).

I think the underlying reason why vinyl encourages you to concentrate is more down to the effort involved in playing an LP. The act of taking it out of the sleeve, taking care in handling it, placing it on the turntable, perhaps giving it a swipe with a carbon fibre brush, then carefully lowering the stylus is all like some kind of "preparation task". Because you have put in that effort, you are psychologically inclined to appreciate the results more than if you had just pressed a button on a digital player.

Your brain is subconsciously telling you that after going to all that effort to play the LP, you better get the most out of this. So you sit down and listen properly. In contrast, playing a digital file costs you virtually zero effort, and if you ignore it you haven't lost anything. So you are more inclined to wander around and find other things to do while it plays.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
probedb
post Nov 1 2013, 09:45
Post #28





Group: Members
Posts: 1121
Joined: 6-September 04
Member No.: 16817



QUOTE (cliveb @ Nov 1 2013, 08:36) *
Your brain is subconsciously telling you that after going to all that effort to play the LP, you better get the most out of this. So you sit down and listen properly. In contrast, playing a digital file costs you virtually zero effort, and if you ignore it you haven't lost anything. So you are more inclined to wander around and find other things to do while it plays.


You've just reiterated what others have said but it's down to the individual.

Listening to and enjoying the music is what is important not the act of putting it on. I could make playing a track on a PC as much effort as putting on a record if I really wanted but it makes no difference to my enjoyment of the music.

Just from the comments here it seems to me that vinyl lovers seem to think they enjoy music more than us 'digital users' because they have to take something out of a sleeve and put it on a deck.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
nu774
post Nov 1 2013, 10:33
Post #29





Group: Developer
Posts: 476
Joined: 22-November 10
From: Japan
Member No.: 85902



QUOTE (cliveb @ Nov 1 2013, 17:36) *
I think the underlying reason why vinyl encourages you to concentrate is more down to the effort involved in playing an LP. The act of taking it out of the sleeve, taking care in handling it, placing it on the turntable, perhaps giving it a swipe with a carbon fibre brush, then carefully lowering the stylus is all like some kind of "preparation task".

OP simply called it "ritual" and that wording seems to fit very well.
And yes, the amount preparation tasks means that it was simply impossible to play songs randomly, jumping from artist A to artist B, window shopping manner.
You had to sit down and play songs sequentially, from the first track of A-side.
I don't think CD was not much different, though. CD still required disc change or something.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
audiofiend
post Nov 1 2013, 11:39
Post #30





Group: Members
Posts: 7
Joined: 16-September 13
Member No.: 110121



My CD collection resides in a cardboard box in the basement and I have ripped most of it to mp3's several years ago to save on storage space. I might have to go through that ordeal once more now that storage space is cheap enough to handle lossless compression. But in contrast to vinyl, ripping a CD is a pretty effortless affair. Put cd in drive, press the button on EAC and take out the CD when done. It's all automagical with no configuration other than the initial one and the odd cd that isn't listed in databases and needs to have the tags entered manually. And it leaves you with what should be a 1:1 copy.

After taking my vinyl collection out of the basement and through the recent years adding to it I have thought of transferring it to digital. But I get hung up on the potential variables like cartridge/stylus, the needle weight, quality of phono amp/mixer, and the fact that few of my vinyls are without pops and cracks. So the vinyl seems in a "magical" way to gravitate towards staying on its original medium for me.

There is also for me a significant amount of nostalgia/rarity coupled with the vinyl medium as that and music casettes was my parents only medium for playing music. So the sentimentality of looking at the covers of the albums from my youth is strong. Be it from the original vinyl itself or those I have come across in bargain bins which teleport me back and to my childhood and only cost $1. In that respect I do not mind some of the pops and cracks on vinyl when they are the exact ones I heard as a child with the memory triggers that are associated with those cues. But overall the crackle and pop doesn't much do it for me other than the spesific time when I put the needle in the blank groove and the vinyl crackle seems to tell the brain: "You're now going to listen to a vinyl record and it's going to be awesome!"

So it's mostly for me a psychologically dependent and nostalgic fascination. The ritual and effort that is mentioned is also a factor for me even though I can appreciate some of my digitally stored music just as well in the right setting. But still there is something about that large physical object of a 12" sleeve and the feeling of communion with the artist as opposed to just letting the feeling of the music itself move you. And for some i suspect vinyl borders on religion.

A small part in addition is the rarity of some releases that are old and obscure enough that a cd or digital release isn't warranted. They are few and far between but for me there is a sense of achievement when I come across what collectors would refer to as a "gem".

Budget and convenience has driven me to purchase lossless and use streaming services for my music fix the past year but I occasionally treat myself to a vinyl to support the artists that "still" cater to that medium and to commune with them better. tongue.gif And the "unfortunate" coming across clearance sales of vinyl has me on the oatmeal diet for weeks. laugh.gif

I would liken it to some peoples fascination with a certain make and model of car, especially ones their family had when growing up. It might not be the fastest or quietest, and it might guzzle gas like a freight-truck. But there is a nostalgic and emotional connection that is hard to quantify and put into words. And even though vinyl has a solid place in many subcultures and a special place in many peoples hearts it suspect might go back to waning now that streaming and digital is what most people growing up today are exposed to and will build their nostalgia from.

So in short, for me personally it's about memories, nostalgia, a slight sense of community. While being fully aware that in many (if not all) regards it is a sonically inferior medium. It still has a certain je ne sais quoi.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
krabapple
post Nov 1 2013, 11:52
Post #31





Group: Members
Posts: 2157
Joined: 18-December 03
Member No.: 10538



QUOTE (nu774 @ Nov 1 2013, 05:33) *
And yes, the amount preparation tasks means that it was simply impossible to play songs randomly, jumping from artist A to artist B, window shopping manner.
You had to sit down and play songs sequentially, from the first track of A-side.



Well, no, you didn't have to do quite that. You could put the B-side on first, or not start at track one. And there were even 'record changers' for the really adventurous ;>

This post has been edited by krabapple: Nov 1 2013, 11:52
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
nu774
post Nov 1 2013, 12:13
Post #32





Group: Developer
Posts: 476
Joined: 22-November 10
From: Japan
Member No.: 85902



QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 1 2013, 19:52) *
Well, no, you didn't have to do quite that. You could put the B-side on first, or not start at track one. And there were even 'record changers' for the really adventurous ;>

Um, yes. vinyl even allows turntablism.
But as far as I can recall, most of the time I was playing vinyl just sequentially.
In case of CD skipping a song is a simple matter of pushing remote control button.
But for vinyl, I had to WALK to the turntable, then I carefully open the turntable cover, and then ...
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mjb2006
post Nov 1 2013, 14:35
Post #33





Group: Members
Posts: 706
Joined: 12-May 06
From: Colorado, USA
Member No.: 30694



QUOTE (db1989 @ Nov 1 2013, 02:17) *
QUOTE (jarsonic @ Oct 31 2013, 17:53) *
I know that in actuality CDs work in a similar fashion, but I think that it can feel like "magic" to have bumps and grooves in a piece of plastic translate into real, beautiful music.

Assuming this to be correct for the sake of argument

This shouldn't be a debate. The OP asked to hear from vinyl fans, not from people who just want to argue with them.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
cliveb
post Nov 1 2013, 14:35
Post #34


WaveRepair developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 824
Joined: 28-July 04
Member No.: 15845



QUOTE (nu774 @ Nov 1 2013, 09:33) *
QUOTE (cliveb @ Nov 1 2013, 17:36) *
I think the underlying reason why vinyl encourages you to concentrate is more down to the effort involved in playing an LP. The act of taking it out of the sleeve, taking care in handling it, placing it on the turntable, perhaps giving it a swipe with a carbon fibre brush, then carefully lowering the stylus is all like some kind of "preparation task".

OP simply called it "ritual" and that wording seems to fit very well.

I very deliberately avoided the word "ritual". To me, a ritual is some sort of (probably irrational) process that is an end in itself. And I agree that for some people, the task of preparing an LP for playback might be part of the pleasure.

But for me, the effort in playing an LP isn't like that. The steps involved are a necessary burden, and I was speculating that perhaps because of this, there is an extra subconscious incentive to try and benefit from the effort expended.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dhromed
post Nov 1 2013, 16:56
Post #35





Group: Members
Posts: 1243
Joined: 16-February 08
From: NL
Member No.: 51347



QUOTE (cliveb @ Nov 1 2013, 15:35) *
The steps involved [in playing an LP] are a necessary burden


Pardon my thick sarcasm, but I happen to know a way to relieve you of that burden.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hotsoup
post Nov 1 2013, 18:17
Post #36





Group: Members
Posts: 84
Joined: 16-March 12
From: Bellingham, WA
Member No.: 97852



I had a couple vinyl records when I was a kid but quickly moved to cassettes (no nostalgia here though, I hated them). Now that I have a nice CD collection, I think I probably look adoringly at it much like any vinylphile would their collection. Someday there will probably be a similar thread for the CD format and my tired a** will wax poetically about the rainbow reflections of a compact disc, old smooth sided jewel cases and Mofi gold albums. The physical media itself is cultural. When the music's playing, it's not really attached to a format anymore. They all succeed at playback when we're grinding on the dance floor.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
cliveb
post Nov 1 2013, 18:21
Post #37


WaveRepair developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 824
Joined: 28-July 04
Member No.: 15845



QUOTE (dhromed @ Nov 1 2013, 15:56) *
QUOTE (cliveb @ Nov 1 2013, 15:35) *
The steps involved [in playing an LP] are a necessary burden

Pardon my thick sarcasm, but I happen to know a way to relieve you of that burden.

Cute. Perhaps I should have said that the steps WERE a necessary burden, back in the days when I used to regularly play LPs. Please don't make the mistake of assuming that I still use LPs. (The only time an LP ever gets physically played in my house nowadays is when it's being transferred to digital).

But you're missing the point of my post. It was suggested by others that perhaps the reason some people get more pleasure from vinyl is because they concentrate harder when listening. And I offered a possible reason for why they might concentrate more, based on my own (historical) personal experience.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
db1989
post Nov 1 2013, 19:49
Post #38





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 5141
Joined: 23-June 06
Member No.: 32180



QUOTE (mjb2006 @ Nov 1 2013, 13:35) *
QUOTE (db1989 @ Nov 1 2013, 02:17) *
QUOTE (jarsonic @ Oct 31 2013, 17:53) *
I know that in actuality CDs work in a similar fashion, but I think that it can feel like "magic" to have bumps and grooves in a piece of plastic translate into real, beautiful music.
Assuming this to be correct for the sake of argument
This shouldn't be a debate. The OP asked to hear from vinyl fans, not from people who just want to argue with them.
Although I canít recall what I did mean, I certainly never intended to argue with anyone for its own sake, if thatís what youíre implyingóbut hey, thanks anyway for the good faith.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Mach-X
post Nov 2 2013, 04:32
Post #39





Group: Members
Posts: 235
Joined: 29-July 12
Member No.: 101859



I think ive figured it out. Again ive only just bought a turntable and the appeal is a bunch of factors. Ritual is one. Adjusting vta and such. Cleaning the vinyl, dropping the needle. After windexing the hell out of a 40 year old vinyl of Tubular Bells and playing it repeatedly so that the stylus carved out 40 years of tobacco and gunk I finally get it. It IS the background crackle but not necessarily that it forces you to listen more intently. After listening to both digital and vinyl versions of Mike Oldfields classic, I tried to figure out what drew me to the vinyl version. Its the background crackle itself, it has a mesmerizing effect much like the crackle of a bonfire, which is like an aphrodisiac for 70s opus type recordings. You feel like youre sitting around a bonfire listening to instruments. Now for my usual listening I would never ditch digital, but for grandiose stuff like Oldfield or Jesus Christ Superstar, or some raunchy blues, vinyl is just the ticket. Cassettes and 8 tracks just sucked though.

This post has been edited by Mach-X: Nov 2 2013, 04:34
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RonaldDumsfeld
post Nov 2 2013, 12:30
Post #40





Group: Members
Posts: 310
Joined: 12-June 09
Member No.: 70617



Playing a constant string of singles can be fun but it become tedious keeping them going. Playing a CD end to end takes too long and your attention wanders.

That's where the 12" vinyl album or LP came into it's own. 10 - 15 minutes is the ideal length for the human attention span. Long and varied enough to immerse yourself in but short enough so you don't risk boredom.

All the above become magnified when listening in a group. Which I think is crucial to the nostalgia many people feel.

You have to consider the context. When LPs started to become popular not everyone had suitable players. Nor the money to buy what was at the time comparatively expensive music. So we all knew who had the best record player. Or whose Dad had built himself a decent stereo. We also had to agree among ourselves who bought which record to avoid duplication and provide variety.

So 'listening to records' was often a group activity. (Also a euphemism for other popular pastimes but that's by the by). Within a couple of hours everyone got a chance to play what they liked, Even if the shy only turned over the last record played. Nothing went on for too long if you didn't really like it much. Likesay. 10 - 15 minutes. Perfect.

You could also build up on the covers and pass them round to read in dim light and a smoky atmosphere. Happy daze indeed.

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Engelsstaub
post Nov 2 2013, 22:50
Post #41





Group: Members
Posts: 545
Joined: 16-February 10
Member No.: 78200



From a collector's point of view there's a pride of ownership that isn't the same with any other format. I'm primarily a metal fan and have been for years and years (I do collect quite a bit of mainstream '70s and '80s rock as well though.) When I was younger there was this (misguided) notion that vinyl = "real metal" and the hardcore metalheads all had turntables and bought it on wax.

Indeed, similarly to Ronald Dumsfeld's comment, it was awesome for me to cut class and go hang out at a friend's house and listen to his Metallica records (back when Metallica actually meant something IMO.) Those of us who bought the cassette found them far less durable but we had the convenience of portability. The record collectors also had that convenience because they dubbed off copies for the road, but they also had the advantage of the nice TT and huge coverart and wicked collections. ...this is much the same today with CD and digital. In fact, most albums I get come with a digital download which is win/win to me. The record still rules as a collector's choice and dominates in resale value, pride of ownership, etc. When I have friends over they see my record collection and it's way more impressive and interesting to them than even some of my rarer CDs. And I'm always slapping somebody's hand off of my mint original pressings of Number of the Beast and Mob Rules smile.gif

These days I don't try to acquire every album I want on vinyl because it's cost-prohibitive, but the stuff I do is far more valuable than my digital files or even my CDs. Many of my LPs are autographed by the artists. I went to some effort to put the jackets in a cardboard mailer and take them to them. I also have a few autographed CDs but it's not quite as cool (to me anyway. Some music just isn't released on any other physical format now.) I've often bought "limited tour vinyl" from bands' merch tables and had them sign them...great memorabilia of all the shows I, and now my daughter too, have been to. She doesn't like records nearly as much as I do and has no interest in playing them but, when I cease to breathe and am on the other side of the grass, she wants and is getting them all.

Death metal, while not everyone's cup o' tea, is one of the funnest genres to collect on vinyl. The insanely brilliant cover art of many of these releases is only rivaled by classic Iron Maiden IMO. If I took pics, like these below, of my autographed CDs nobody would care or even look closely:





--------------------
The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Mach-X
post Nov 3 2013, 15:41
Post #42





Group: Members
Posts: 235
Joined: 29-July 12
Member No.: 101859



OMG that Torture LP is jawdropping.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Engelsstaub
post Nov 4 2013, 00:19
Post #43





Group: Members
Posts: 545
Joined: 16-February 10
Member No.: 78200



I *had* to do a back-cover shot of that one just to show off the fact that I had it signed in gold by Alex Webster and Paul Mazurkiewicz. biggrin.gif The front-cover is nowhere near as NSFW as most Cannibal Corpse albums are infamous for. (Admittedly, in this instance, the CD digipak for Torture is pretty cool in its own right. It has the gatefold-cutout while the album cover does not.)

All of the usual discussion here understandably centers around vinyl's inherent flaws and shortcomings as a playback-medium. I just wanted to share a small glimpse of the fun-side; dealing with art and hobby. I thought some pictures would more accurately convey "What is So Special About Vinyls," from one of my perspectives, better than my ramblings. (I have so many more that I would have loved to have posted but it could be seen as obnoxious and overstating my case.)


--------------------
The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
krabapple
post Nov 4 2013, 18:34
Post #44





Group: Members
Posts: 2157
Joined: 18-December 03
Member No.: 10538



Again, as the covers comprised so much of the glamour and fun of LPs (at least for me, the actual LPS themselves were a pain), I could never understand why record companies didn't routinely offer CDs in LP covers. Best of both worlds.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Nov 4 2013, 18:34
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Mach-X
post Nov 4 2013, 19:22
Post #45





Group: Members
Posts: 235
Joined: 29-July 12
Member No.: 101859



Because they didn't have to. The price of cds when they came out was near double that of the cassette, yet cost a fraction to produce. Smaller size also meant less artwork than lp. Yet we happily gobbled them up getting less for our money because they were digital and sounded better and it was a oowie new technology!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Nov 4 2013, 19:43
Post #46


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 4945
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (Mach-X @ Nov 4 2013, 19:22) *
Yet we happily gobbled them up getting less for our money because they were digital and sounded better
...monumentally better than what most people had at the time. You can't imagine the impact of music exploding out of silence on a CD compared with all previous analogue formats where the noise started first.

I like the smell of vinyl wink.gif Old bookshops, old pianos, old gramophones, old radios, and old stacks of vinyl have their own unique smells. CDs do too. Not sure whether I could ABX the smell of a FLAC against an mp3 though. wink.gif

I like the physicality of a moving record groove which you can put your finger nail in and hear+feel the music (if you don't care for your records that much!). That same movement is transformed into the movement of speaker cones, air, and the music itself. It's tangible.

I like buying something that no one else wants (I don't buy expensive records) and enjoying it in the same way that people did 10-100 years ago. It's a very cheap time machine.

I fear the OP is long gone.

Cheers,
David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pdq
post Nov 4 2013, 20:07
Post #47





Group: Members
Posts: 3304
Joined: 1-September 05
From: SE Pennsylvania
Member No.: 24233



I like to imagine what it would have felt like, back in Edison's days, for the very first time to hear sound coming out of a mechanical device. That must have caused more than a little amazement, bordering on the miraculous.

By contrast, when I was growing up records were no big deal, and only my great grandparents could relate to what I am describing.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
aztec_mystic
post Nov 5 2013, 00:09
Post #48





Group: Members
Posts: 93
Joined: 28-March 13
Member No.: 107425



QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 4 2013, 18:34) *
I could never understand why record companies didn't routinely offer CDs in LP covers.

Transportation cost would be higher. Also, LPs take up so much space. CDs are much easier to store.

Record companies are doing something similar to your suggestion: they sell the LPs to hipsters. The hipsters can keep the LP for its looks. For actual music listening, they can use the download code to obtain the audio files...

As for the covers themselves: sure, cover art can be a beautiful thing. Although, most of the vinyl I bought were 12 inches that came in generic label sleeves or generic plain sleeves. That's just my personal experience, I realize it's different for LP buyers.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mzil
post Nov 5 2013, 00:30
Post #49





Group: Members
Posts: 422
Joined: 5-August 07
Member No.: 45913



QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 4 2013, 10:34) *
Again, as the covers comprised so much of the glamour and fun of LPs (at least for me, the actual LPS themselves were a pain), I could never understand why record companies didn't routinely offer CDs in LP covers. Best of both worlds.

My understanding is the original "long box" retail package, 12 inches long, was concocted to add bulk as a shoplifting deterrent [not as easy to stuff them in a pants pocket, I guess], yet added only minimal weight. The height was selected so existing record stores could intermingle long boxes with LPs and people could leaf through them, yet the storage bins needed little to no modification.

For people who liked the "mini poster art" aspect, some were made such that unfolding them resulted in a similar poster as the LP cover:


I remember keeping some long boxes which I thought had interesting or artistic merit, but fewer and fewer ones had anything worth keeping, beyond a small truncated version of the album cover, and eventually they were completely phased out, largely due to the environmentally wasteful bulk.

You may wish to join their preservation society, however.

This post has been edited by mzil: Nov 5 2013, 00:33
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Engelsstaub
post Nov 5 2013, 06:51
Post #50





Group: Members
Posts: 545
Joined: 16-February 10
Member No.: 78200



QUOTE (aztec_mystic @ Nov 4 2013, 18:09) *
...
Record companies are doing something similar to your suggestion: they sell the LPs to hipsters. The hipsters can keep the LP for its looks. For actual music listening, they can use the download code to obtain the audio files...


People can buy and choose whatever products they want and not necessarily be hipsters. Also: there are plenty of records that do not come with download codes so we can do our actual listening on turntables as well. I don't think that is similar to krabapple's suggestion at all.

QUOTE (mzil @ Nov 4 2013, 18:30) *
...I remember keeping some long boxes which I thought had interesting or artistic merit..


I sure miss the CD long boxes and their time. Not just for the LP-like packaging but because CDs were generally well-produced and couldn't be easily duplicated as they can be now. When I got my first CD player (1990 or 1991) I was so impressed with the format that I sold almost all of my LPs and cassettes. At first I saved all of my long boxes too but got rid of them when I joined the military.


--------------------
The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 16th April 2014 - 12:08