Multiformat 128 kbps Listening Test, Pre-Test Discussion Options

[Sebastian Mares]

Regarding the DL problem - you could use a DL manager, I guess.

[Alex B]

@ Alex B: What did you think about this one: Cæcilie Norby - Life on Mars

She's great, but I'm afraid that the encoders might like her too and be too gentle.

(Seriously, it's too difficult to say anything without a lossless sample and ABX testing.)

[Sebastian Mares]

Not bad, but as Alex said, it might be too simple for 128 kbps. Thanks for providing, though.

This post has been edited by Sebastian Mares: Dec 1 2005, 23:57

[sehested]

@ Alex B: What did you think about this one: Cæcilie Norby - Life on Mars

She's great, but I'm afraid that the encoders might like her too and be too gentle.

(Seriously, it's too difficult to say anything without a lossless sample and ABX testing.)

Well I thought you were looking for a simple track with a strong female voice...

I would like see a strong female voice included. A jazz or opera singer who can sing load and high would be good. Someone who can break glasses with her voice... this kind of sample might produce low bitrates and be difficult for the encoders at the same time.

She's a jazz singer and her mother is an opera singer.

Anyway, I brought this one from iTunes so I don't have the lossless version. However I 'm willing to go out and buy the CD, cause I like it a lot.

[Alex B]

Well, my spontaneous reaction is that you should keep it at q4, since 128 kbps was the target of this test - at least to begin with

Unfortunately there are no LAME -V4.7, iTunes VBR 123 kbps and WMA Pro45 options available. The new Nero encoder has been a secret so far and I don't know what options are available.

Vorbis Q4 makes lower bitrates than the other encoders with my various test track set.
Noxer found it to make even lower bitrates: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=343486.
guruboolez got similar results with 150 classical tracks: http://foobar2000.net/divers/temp/128_bitrate_classical.xls.


Edit: a dot, a couple of enters and a link

This post has been edited by Alex B: Dec 2 2005, 00:14

[yahknow1]

Regarding the DL problem - you could use a DL manager, I guess.

Like Gozzila?...I suppose I could try this, but my problem is not getting the file, it's that what I get is trying to label itself: .php

Even the bit-size of the file I get matches the size your post says it should be...only it has this wierd extension and for some reason wants to name itself "index"?

This is really frustrating....does anyone even know what type files use extension: .php?

[Alex B]

Regarding the DL problem - you could use a DL manager, I guess.

Like Gozzila?...I suppose I could try this, but my problem is not getting the file, it's that what I get is trying to label itself: .php

Even the bit-size of the file I get matches the size your post says it should be...only it has this wierd extension and for some reason wants to name itself "index"?

This is really frustrating....does anyone even know what type files use extension: .php?

Try Opera.

[Mr VacBob]

I could, but I need a tool¹ to cut losslessly an AAC or MP4 file. Does that exist? mp4box maybe?


¹ not too hard to use

MP4Box can do it:

-splitx start:end
extracts a new file from specified start to end times (in sec-
onds). This will remove all MPEG-4 Systems media. When input
file is an ISO-Media file (QT, MP4, 3GP), if no output is speci-
fied THE INPUT FILE IS OVERWRITTEN.

ex. "MP4Box -splitx 5:35 test.m4a". Although that produces test_5_35.m4a for me, so the manual seems to be out of date.

[ErikS]

I haven't been able to listen to all the proposed test samples yet, but I ask instead: Is there any audiobook/dialogue from movie included? At least one classical and one jazz-like piece I hope...? And not only male singers but also female singers...? Then fine!

On to my main question: have you decided which version of abc/hr to use yet? I can inform you that if you choose the latest 0.5, it requires JRE 1.5 which is not available for Mac OS X up until 10.3 (which is what I use). I'm hoping that it will be ok to use either 0.5 or some older version which I can run, but I'm not so sure if the encryption etc are the same then... Schnoffler? Are you reading this?

[ff123]

I haven't been able to listen to all the proposed test samples yet, but I ask instead: Is there any audiobook/dialogue from movie included? At least one classical and one jazz-like piece I hope...? And not only male singers but also female singers...? Then fine!

On to my main question: have you decided which version of abc/hr to use yet? I can inform you that if you choose the latest 0.5, it requires JRE 1.5 which is not available for Mac OS X up until 10.3 (which is what I use). I'm hoping that it will be ok to use either 0.5 or some older version which I can run, but I'm not so sure if the encryption etc are the same then... Schnoffler? Are you reading this?

prior to the version which used JRE 1.5, you could get clicking sounds during playback.

ff123

[ErikS]

prior to the version which used JRE 1.5, you could get clicking sounds during playback.

ff123

OK, but clicking sound is better than no sound at all. At least if it's not too frequent, and I never had a problem with it before... Upgrading my entire OS just to participate in the listening test is not an option for me. There may be a few others as well... Are we allowed to use older clicking versions?

This post has been edited by ErikS: Dec 2 2005, 02:25

[Sebastian Mares]

I haven't been able to listen to all the proposed test samples yet, but I ask instead: Is there any audiobook/dialogue from movie included? At least one classical and one jazz-like piece I hope...? And not only male singers but also female singers...? Then fine!

No audiobook / movie dialogue since I think each encoder should cope with that at 128 kbps. I proposed that only for lowering the bitrate in case an encoder is off the 10% tolerance margin.
Classical: Ravel and Macabre, as well as Carbonelli. (Edit: First two are orchestral.)
Jazz-Like: Not really. I have this Bodyheat sample, but that's not really Jazz. Anyone wants to post one? You still have five hours left for doing so.
Female: Paris Combo - Senor

Edit: Jazz: I can replace the Gang Of Four sample with ATrain.

This post has been edited by Sebastian Mares: Dec 2 2005, 06:59

[sehested]

Jazz-Like: Not really. I have this Bodyheat sample, but that's not really Jazz. Anyone wants to post one? You still have five hours left for doing so.
Female: Paris Combo - Senor

Edit: Jazz: I can replace the Gang Of Four sample with ATrain.

Me! Me! Me!

Jazz sample

[Sebastian Mares]

Jazz-Like: Not really. I have this Bodyheat sample, but that's not really Jazz. Anyone wants to post one? You still have five hours left for doing so.
Female: Paris Combo - Senor

Edit: Jazz: I can replace the Gang Of Four sample with ATrain.

Me! Me! Me!

Jazz sample

Thanks for providing. I am going to replace Natural's Not In It with the Jazz sample you provided.

[Sebastian Mares]

prior to the version which used JRE 1.5, you could get clicking sounds during playback.

ff123

OK, but clicking sound is better than no sound at all. At least if it's not too frequent, and I never had a problem with it before... Upgrading my entire OS just to participate in the listening test is not an option for me. There may be a few others as well... Are we allowed to use older clicking versions?

Is a VM an option?

[Alex B]

I uploaded three opera voice samples.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=347150

[Sebastian Mares]

I uploaded three opera voice samples.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=347150

Thanks!

I have enough samples now.

[Alex B]

Check this one out too if you didn't already: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=347155

I'll make test encodings of the four voice samples I uploaded with e.g. LAME and try to quickly ABX them. I didn't have time to do that before. I'll tell what I found if anything. I think I'll try a step lower quality setting for making the possible artifacts more audible.

[ErikS]

Is a VM an option?

VM as in virtual machine? I'd be happy to download a Java VM that I can run abc/hr under, but it's not available as far as I know.. Or did you mean the kind that emulates a PC? Well, then I still have to install an operating system on top of the one I have now - and I have neither enough hd space nor enough money (for the software) for that.

Easiest would clearly be to just use an old version of abc/hr if it is compatible with the cryptation etc...

This post has been edited by ErikS: Dec 2 2005, 15:24

[Sebastian Mares]

Is a VM an option?

VM as in virtual machine? I'd be happy to download a Java VM that I can run abc/hr under, but it's not available as far as I know.. Or did you mean the kind that emulates a PC? Well, then I still have to install an operating system on top of the one I have now - and I have neither enough hd space nor enough money (for the software) for that.

Easiest would clearly be to just use an old version of abc/hr if it is compatible with the cryptation etc...

I meant a virtual PC running Linux for example. There are trial version of VMware and MS Virtual PC available. Additionally, I could set up a minimal Linux system on VMware and make it available to the public. I think it could work with the free VMware Player.

Edit: Aren't there live Linux distributions that can run on Mac?

This post has been edited by Sebastian Mares: Dec 2 2005, 15:47

[ErikS]

I meant a virtual PC running Linux for example. There are trial version of VMware and MS Virtual PC available. Additionally, I could set up a minimal Linux system on VMware and make it available to the public. I think it could work with the free VMware Player.

It could work. But is it worth it? What is the problem with using an older version of abc/hr from your point of view?

This post has been edited by ErikS: Dec 2 2005, 15:47

[ErikS]

Edit: Aren't there live Linux distributions that can run on Mac?

Yes, but as I said, I'm not going to change OS just for a listening test...

[Sebastian Mares]

I meant a virtual PC running Linux for example. There are trial version of VMware and MS Virtual PC available. Additionally, I could set up a minimal Linux system on VMware and make it available to the public. I think it could work with the free VMware Player.

It could work. But is it worth it? What is the problem with using an older version of abc/hr from your point of view?

I don't know how serious the clicking problem is.

[Alex B]

It seems to be difficult to quickly ABX the voice samples I provided. I tried LAME -V5 --vbr-new and QT AAC vbr128. I guess the famous golden ears would be needed. I didn't try lower settings after all, because that would have not been the same.

One note though, the Tosca samples sung by Maria Callas are remastered mono recordings. LAME seems to make lower bitrates than the other encoders because it can use 100% ms frames in joint stereo mode. I don't know if that gives any advantage to the other encoders. I guess the others just waste space.

[Sebastian Mares]

It seems to be difficult to quickly ABX the voice samples I provided. I tried LAME -V5 --vbr-new and QT AAC vbr128. I guess the famous golden ears would be needed. I didn't try lower settings after all, because that would have not been the same.

One note though, the Tosca samples sung by Maria Callas are remastered mono recordings. LAME seems to make lower bitrates than the other encoders because it can use 100% ms frames in joint stereo mode. I don't know if that gives any advantage to the other encoders. I guess the others just waste space.

Well, I think the samples are pretty easy. LAME and Vorbis produced bitrates varying between ~90 kbps and ~130 kbps, I assume the two ABR encoders iTunes and Nero will give similar results, the only difference being WMA Pro which might allocate a bit more. That's why I think none of the samples should be included. Hope you don't mind.