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Topic: A few questions from a n00b (Read 12218 times) previous topic - next topic
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A few questions from a n00b

Hi there!

(I apologize in advance, this will be quite long)


Yesterday I borrowed a few cd's and ripped my favourite 1 or 2 songs off each  (i know its piracy, but if there are only 2 out of 10 songs i like, i'm not buying it). 
I've always done this to mp3's but then it clicked, 'aren't there things like mp4 and ogg around nowadays that are better?'.  So I have had a look around and with a bit of difficulty, have started using AAC.  And now I've found here, I have a few questions. 

I have looked the relevently titled threads in MPC and AAC forums, but still have these questions, so I hope I don't repeat other people and annoy everyone :o)

Before, I used Xing MP3 v1.5 at 224kbs CBR.  I preferred it to LAME, as to me it did a better job.  But, I never liked how up to 16khz it was fine, but above that it looked like it made a botch of the frequencies, but at least it was putting something there unlike other codecs.  And just to clarify, at the moment, all I'm doing to test files is use Cool Edit's spectrum analyzer, and er, non-blind testing (i can see the names, but try to be objective).

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I know this is is probably the stupidest question, so I'll put it first.  Simply put, I'm not sure if I'm best using AAC or MPC. 

To give as much info as possible...  I'm trying to make near enough archive quality files of songs I want to keep.  But, I don't want 400kbs files, I might as well just winrar them!  I'm encoding at around 170 - 230 kbs depending on how hard the song is to encode (going on how high the bitrate is in a vbr mode), and how much I like the track.  I don't really care about hardware compatability either, I have a wicked discman, and if I make decent enough files, I can just burn compilations to a cd.

Looking on these boards, I really don't know what's what!
MPC gives the best quality at high bitrates?  (how high are we talking here?)
but AAC is better as MPC is going defunct?   

Also, I'm swayed towards AAC simply because this AAC board is friendly and helpful (notably the guy with the scary transient-gendered picture), and what I've seen of the MPC board, its filled with sodding flame wars, albeit of a more 'intelligent' manner.

Is there a "noticable" quality difference between AAC & MPC at these bitrates?

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I am using AACENC 2.15, with a windows frontend by Ivan & Menno.  I don't bother with FAAD, as I have downloaded a plugin for cooledit,  and I have the in_mp4 and in_faac plugins for Winamp (which i think are working ok..).

To make the quality of files I'm after, I'm not really sure what switches to be using...
the -extreme switch makes files that are usually a bit bigger than I want.  So, if it comes out too big, I use : -vbrhi -br 170  for example. 

Looking at the help files provided, it sais using the preset vbr's is RECOMMENDED for best quality files :oS  Is that true, or am I best off deciding my own bitrates?

Am I right in thinking it's ok to use the LC profile at my bitrates?  A test on the Psytel site (i think) implied that you should use profile 1 or 2...  but don't these only have noticable benefits in lower (64 - 128) bitrates?

And out of curiosity... does the -production switch even do anything?  I've encoded files at 64, 128 & 256 kbps, and noticed it only takes 5 seconds longer to encode in -production  (for a 4 minute encode time).. and I can't see any difference in quality?  (again, this is just using cool edit to look at the high frequencies)

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How do I make .mp4 files?  AACENC makes .aac files, which I can play in winamp fine.  I would just prefer an .mp4 extension as a matter of taste.  I had a go at renaming an .aac to .mp4 but that failed!

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Again out of curiosity...  I was wondering about the VBR modes.  In my old Xing MP3, as far as I understood, a vbr file was made of a mix of standard bitrates (32, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, 128, 160, 192, 224, 256).  I take it AACENC doesn't work like this...  and if so, why does Xing do it like that?! 

When I play a VBR AAC file in winamp, in the little box for bitrate, it just shows 218 (or whatever) the whole time.  Is there anyway to make a plugin that shows the actual bitrate the whole way through?  I just like seeing how it goes up and down!  (and no, I would only want it in winamp, not a frame by frame analyzer!)

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Reading about Dolby's licencing scheme for AAC made me laugh!  Am I right in thinking you would give them songs, they encode them, charge you, and give them back?  If so, does anyone know roughly the prices charged?  And does that make AACENC & FAAC pretty darn illegal?

I wonder if people start sharing more .aac's then Dolby will do a Metallica and try banning everyone who downloads one? :o)  (my mate was proud to get a letter from Metallica banning him from Napster!  Incidentaly, he owns all of their albums legally...)

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If you don't mind answering any or all of these, it'd be greatly appreciated! :o)

Many thanks,
Iain
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #1
Quote
Originally posted by Mac
Before, I used Xing MP3 v1.5 at 224kbs CBR.  I preferred it to LAME, as to me it did a better job.  But, I never liked how up to 16khz it was fine, but above that it looked like it made a botch of the frequencies, but at least it was putting something there unlike other codecs.  And just to clarify, at the moment, all I'm doing to test files is use Cool Edit's spectrum analyzer, and er, non-blind testing (i can see the names, but try to be objective).

Audio quality can't be determined by looking at spectrum analyzer. If you want quick proof, encode something with LAME -b 112 -k and look the result in Cool Edit. All frequencies are there but sound is horrible.

Quote
Looking on these boards, I really don't know what's what!
MPC gives the best quality at high bitrates?   (how high are we talking here?)

High bitrate is something over 160 kbps.

Quote
Is there a "noticable" quality difference between AAC & MPC at these bitrates?

If you allow encoders to chooce bitrate and you use -normal / -standard or higher profiles, both formats are transparent for most people on most material. On some harder material MPC is audibly better.

Quote
To make the quality of files I'm after, I'm not really sure what switches to be using...
the -extreme switch makes files that are usually a bit bigger than I want.  So, if it comes out too big, I use : -vbrhi -br 170  for example.

You'd better use the profiles, they are tuned to provide consistent quality for all material. If you force lower bitrate, you are going to lose quality.

Quote
Looking at the help files provided, it sais using the preset vbr's is RECOMMENDED for best quality files S   Is that true

It's true.

Quote
How do I make .mp4 files?  AACENC makes .aac files, which I can play in winamp fine.  I would just prefer an .mp4 extension as a matter of taste.  I had a go at renaming an .aac to .mp4 but that failed!

MP4 tools are available at rjamorim's site.

Quote
When I play a VBR AAC file in winamp, in the little box for bitrate, it just shows 218 (or whatever) the whole time.   Is there anyway to make a plugin that shows the actual bitrate the whole way through?  I just like seeing how it goes up and down!   (and no, I would only want it in winamp, not a frame by frame analyzer!)

In in_faac preferences you can enable this.

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Am I right in thinking you would give them songs, they encode them, charge you, and give them back?

No.

Quote
And does that make AACENC & FAAC pretty darn illegal?

FAAC sources are legal. Using Aacenc isn't, unless you live in Brazil

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #2
Thanks for the help )

Quote
You'd better use the profiles, they are tuned to provide consistent quality for all material. If you force lower bitrate, you are going to lose quality.


So if I wanted better quality than -normal, but didn't want such a big file as -extreme, I would be better using -vbrhi with a bitrate between the two?  I would then have higher than -normal's defined quality setting? 

Also, I've been playing round with Cool Edit's tone generator, and found that I can't hear anything above 19khz.  Don't higher frequency's add a feeling of warmth, which'd be why vinyl is preferred by some to cd.  I'm just wondering if this would be sensible : having a high pass at 20khz, so that more info is given to the lower frequencies, giving a better representation of the original?  I'm guessing that's what mp3's did at 16khz, but seeing as I can hear 3khz higher than that, I'd want to include that info.

Quote
MP4 tools are available at rjamorim's site.


By that do you mean the RareWares site linked to on his posts?  If so, I looked at that, and saw two versions of the Psytel coder,  is it the AACENC version with mpeg4 as default for the profiles you mean?  If so, I can't download that, I keep getting HTTP 500 errors, probably meaning this modem at my parents place is screwed up as usual!



I don't understand why binaries could be illegal if the source is available?  Also, how does their licencing scheme work then?  It involves payment to them doesn't it?

Iain
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #3
Quote
Originally posted by Mac
So if I wanted better quality than -normal, but didn't want such a big file as -extreme, I would be better using -vbrhi with a bitrate between the two?  I would then have higher than -normal's defined quality setting?

This sounds logical, but presets may use some hidden settings that are not triggered with plain -vbrhi. If that's the case, presets may have better quality even with lower bitrate.

Quote
Also, I've been playing round with Cool Edit's tone generator, and found that I can't hear anything above 19khz.  Don't higher frequency's add a feeling of warmth, which'd be why vinyl is preferred by some to cd.  I'm just wondering if this would be sensible : having a high pass at 20khz, so that more info is given to the lower frequencies, giving a better representation of the original?  I'm guessing that's what mp3's did at 16khz, but seeing as I can hear 3khz higher than that, I'd want to include that info.

Hearing 19 kHz tone and 19kHz lowpass are two different things, the latter should be impossible. You could try for starters lowpassing your favorite track at 16kHz and see if you can detect it in blind test.

Quote
By that do you mean the RareWares site linked to on his posts?  If so, I looked at that, and saw two versions of the Psytel coder,  is it the AACENC version with mpeg4 as default for the profiles you mean?  If so, I can't download that, I keep getting HTTP 500 errors, probably meaning this modem at my parents place is screwed up as usual!

I meant MP4creator, you should be able to use that to convert aac files to mp4 format.

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #4
That's what I was wondering...  does anyone know whether hidden switches are triggered with presets?


One thing I've noticed against the presets, you can't use low pass filters on them.  I see your point with it being alot easier to pick out a high tone with nothing else around than in a proper song.  If this is the case, I don't see why I'd want to waste bits in the >17k frequencies?  (i'm asking if this is a wise idea to you experts?)


And I couldn't find the MP4creator on rjamorim's site, but found them elsewhere.  I take it converting aac 2 mp4 just changes the way the file is treated, not the data..  so doing this doesn't lose any of your encoded quality?  If that's the case, I've found mp4 files load a lot quicker in Winamp, which I've found a serious problem with aac files  (as i said in the mp4 winamp plugin thread)  I'm finding a 70min aac file can take 20 seconds to load (  Is this normal?
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #5
It could be if you have set the option in the aac plugin to load the whole file into memory!

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #6
Nope, I was first using the original settings of the plugin  (dont load entire files, highest priority). 

I've noticed a couple of other problems/bugs?

This one...  the fact that AAC files take a long long time to load in winamp?...

MPC files load quickly in winamp, but I have trouble using the slider to jump to different parts of the song.  If you click somewhere on the slider, the image jumps to your click then back again and the song doesn't move at all...  or if you click and drag a little, then it will wait half a second, then jump there!

And finally, the biggest problem for me...  I'm using the faac.flt file from RareWares, and have found that importing .mp4 files that have been converting using MP4creator just crashes Cool Edit.  This happens with any file I've tried....
Cool Edit reports the file as being a 128000bps RAW MPEG-2 file..  (although its made from a vbr file), and as soon as you click on the file in the open box, the program crashes.


Also, is there any mpc input plugin for cool edit?
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #7
Quote
Originally posted by Mac
MPC files load quickly in winamp, but I have trouble using the slider to jump to different parts of the song.   If you click somewhere on the slider, the image jumps to your click then back again and the song doesn't move at all...  or if you click and drag a little, then it will wait half a second, then jump there!

This is not correct forum for mpc bug reports, but can you tell which plugin version you had trouble with.

Quote
Also, is there any mpc input plugin for cool edit?

Not yet.

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #8
mac,

The problem you are having with seeking will be solved with the new stream version in MPC's format, sv8. It will be a while before you can losslessly transcode your MPC's to this format but it will happen.

I've been using most MPC input plugins and thats the most consistant problem all round, but I figure its worth the effort!

Ruairi
rc55.com - nothing going on

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #9
Aah sorry, I was mainly interested in the problems with aac and mp4 files.  I'm hoping someone to do with AAC will reply!

I'm using 1.01j -alpha- of mppenc, and the winamp 0.96 plugin.
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #10
Mac,

Send a Private Message to rjamorim, he's very knowledgable about AAC and a nice guy also! Hehe... otherwise there are a number of good people around here that can help...

And welcome from me, you're all the way up Brum. I must go there for a "Currroooyyy!!!" sometime

Ruairi
rc55.com - nothing going on

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #11
Quote
Originally posted by rc55
...you're all the way up Brum.


I was going to say, when I started reading this thread I was like, "Wha? There's a place called Bellingham in England? Anyways, it's abbr the same.
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Pardon my English, I'm an American
"Something bothering you, Mister Spock?"

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #12
This seemed like a good thread (noob questions) to ask this...

The LAME  forum has an AWESOME list of recommended LAME settings, sorted by quality. Can we get a similar /sticky/ thread for AAC? It would be very helpful.

Also, what setting and approx. file size of AAC compares (audio quality) to a LAME Insane preset? What setting an approx file size of AAC compares to a LAME alt preset CBR 128 preset?

Thanks for the help!

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #13
Just to clarify - I estimate LAME Insane = approx 2.25 MB per minute and LAME CBR 128 approx 1 MB per minute.

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #14
I think on the AAC official websites, they say 96kbs AAC compares to 128kbs of mp3...  so it would be 96-112 I'd say?  It would give 0.75mb a minute )

Not sure about the insane LAME switch, but you could guess it'd be 75% of the file size again would give roughly the same quality?
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #15
Quote
Originally posted by Mac

Yesterday I borrowed a few cd's and ripped my favourite 1 or 2 songs off each  (i know its piracy, but if there are only 2 out of 10 songs i like, i'm not buying it). 

I'm not entirely sure of the copyright laws in the UK, but borrowing from a friend, relative or even the local library and making a copy for personal use is not illegal here in Sweden. The key is 'personal use'. Having the CD, copying it and then selling the original is another matter, as is distributing the copy to other people.

Cheers,
Uosdwis

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #16
Quote
And welcome from me, you're all the way up Brum. I must go there for a "Currroooyyy!!!" sometime

'All the way up'? That has to be a wussy Southerner talking...


Quote
I was going to say, when I started reading this thread I was like, "Wha? There's a place called Bellingham in England? Anyways, it's abbr the same.

Indeed there is

OT: my favourite UK place name is Westward Ho! - the only place name in the civilized world with an exclamation mark in it (I am of course excluding Quebec from the civilized world , given that Quebec contains the town with the frankly silly name of Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!).

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #17
Well, since no one answered - I guess there is not a "recommended AAC compression options" thread. Does such a page exist on the net? If so, can someone provide a link.

I have downloaded AAC Psytel 2.15 and will use it in conjunction with EAC. I need only the recommended command line options to determine the optimal file size/quality mix.

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #18
Quote
Originally posted by ezra2323
I have downloaded AAC Psytel 2.15 and will use it in conjunction with EAC. I need only the recommended command line options to determine the optimal file size/quality mix.


The recommended settings are the VBR profiles.

Specifically, -normal, -extreme and -archive.

-normal should be enough for all/most of your encoding needs. If you want some "headroom" (blah!), go with -extreme. If you're feeling neurothic, use -archive.

-normal averages 150-160kbps, -extreme averages 190-200, and -archive averages 240-250.

Regards;

Roberto.

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #19
Thanks Roberto!!!

Great information. I hate to be a pain, but I want to do this right. Just type  -normal  in the command line?

Finally, I know where to get the decoder for Winamp from Rarewares so I won't ask. Is there any special installation instructions onc ethe file is downloaded? Or do you just double click on it and it installs itself?

150-160 kbps for a great sounding file???? Cool!!!! We just need some hardware support!!!!

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #20
Quote
Originally posted by ezra2323
Great information. I hate to be a pain, but I want to do this right. Just type  -normal   in the command line?


aacenc -if <file name.wav> -normal

Quote
Finally, I know where to get the decoder for Winamp from Rarewares so I won't ask. Is there any special installation instructions onc ethe file is downloaded? Or do you just double click on it and it installs itself?


Unzip faadplug.zip and run in_faad.exe (It's a NSIS installer that automatically puts in_faad.dll in your Winamp /plugins directrory)

Quote
We just need some hardware support!!!!


Do we really?

Philips Expanium supports ISO AAC playback.

Some other players were reported to support it too, but I don't remember their names now.

Regards;

Roberto.

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #21
By ISO AAC playback, do you mean it only plays back Low Complexity files?  It won't do profile 2 or 3?
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #22
Quote
Originally posted by Mac
By ISO AAC playback, do you mean it only plays back Low Complexity files?  It won't do profile 2 or 3?


Well, what I meant is that it plays unencrypted AAC (in opposition to Liquid Audio AAC or Panasonic AAC or Mayah AAC..., that have bitstream modifications and play only on their proprietary players). The standardized format.

But, indeed, it plays only AAC LC (AFAIK). It's just a limitation.

Regards;

Roberto.

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #23
First - let me contribute some news, the IRiver dataplay enabled device supports AAC as does a new portable device from Panasonic.

Now, to be a total AAC noob--- I still do not quite understand the following reply in conjunction with EAC

"aacenc -if <file name.wav> -normal"

If I am extracting audio from a CD or batch compressing wavs with EAC - how do I type the file name.wav into the command line? Should I just type  "aaenc  -if -normal" in the EAC command line, then press the MP3 button to start extracting audio and compressing with AAC?

Sorry that I am so dense!

A few questions from a n00b

Reply #24
Quote
Originally posted by ezra2323
"aacenc -if <file name.wav> -normal"


I don't use EAC much, but you must change <file name.wav> to %something (Most probably %1, but you should try other numbers if 1 doesn't work)

So, it stays "aacenc -if "%1" -normal"

Regards;

Roberto.