Ogg FLAC support on iRiver iHP-120, Does iRiver iHP-120 support Ogg FLAC? Options

[ACChampion]

Hi everyone!

I'm strongly considering purchasing either an iRiver iHP-120 or a Rio Karma. I was originally drawn to the Karma because it supports FLAC, which I intend to rip my music collection in, but I heard so many "my hard drive crashed" and/or "tech support was awful" horror stories that I'm leaning toward the iRiver. iRiver's iHP-120 product page said that the iRiver supports "OGG format files," so I wondered if the iRiver supports only Ogg Vorbis files or any file with a .ogg extension. (I find the phrase "OGG format files" to be a bit confusing, as I found that Ogg is just a bitstream container while poking around xiph.org's Wiki.) Has anyone had any success transferring and playing Ogg FLAC files on their iRiver?

If the iRiver does not support Ogg FLAC files, then I will likely purchase the Karma. However, I've heard a good deal of complaints regarding hard drive crashes after several months of use; the Riovolution Karma Support forums are full of them, and even CNET.com's editors noticed this in their review of the Karma. I've also heard that the nub used to navigate through the menu structure tends to fall off easily. Are these problems widespread, that is, has anyone experienced similar problems? I don't intend to use the Karma while exercising, so I should think that would diminish the likelihood of hard drive crashes.

In general, which of these two players is a better choice?

Thanks very much for your time.

[jcoalson]

it almost certainly does not support Ogg FLAC. almost always when people say OGG (all caps) they mean Ogg Vorbis. for some reason the concept of a container seems very hard to grasp even for technical people.

Josh

edit: PS I wasn't implying that you or iriver don't grasp it BTW, that was a separate observation.

This post has been edited by jcoalson: Sep 8 2004, 23:58

[ACChampion]

it almost certainly does not support Ogg FLAC.  almost always when people say OGG (all caps) they mean Ogg Vorbis.

Thanks, Josh. I had a feeling the iRiver didn't support FLAC --- I just wasn't sure if "OGG format support" meant "only Ogg Vorbis support" or "any .ogg file support."

[Emanuel]

In the future, there might be FLAC support in the Iriver H-series, thanks to the Iriver Rockbox port - a new and unofficial firmware under development.

A great site to keep track of Iriver developement and Q/A, is the "fan-site" www.iriver.us

Regards

EDIT: spelling

This post has been edited by Emanuel: Sep 9 2004, 12:17

[ilikedirtthe2nd]

Wow, RockBox on Iriver would be extremely cool

[rfarris]

In the future, there might be FLAC support in the Iriver H-series, thanks to the Iriver Rockbox port - a new and unofficial firmware under development.

Hey! Tell me something that's going to put a smile on my face. Tell me that if I upgrade the Rockbox software on my Archos that it will play flac files. Please!

[Emanuel]

Well, at the documentation they say like this regarding the Archos:

17. You mention supporting Ogg Vorbis and other file types on your list of ideas. What is the status on that?

Pessimist's Answer: At the current time we believe this is not very likely. The Micronas chip (MAS3507) decoder in the Archos does not natively support decoding and there is very little program space in the player to implement it ourselves. The alternative would be to write a software decoder as part of the Rockbox firmware. However, as much as we love our players, the computing power of the Archos (SH1 microcontroller) is not fully sufficient for this need.

Optimist's Answer: We can play any format if only we can write code for the DSP to decode it. The MAS 3507 (and 3587) are generic DSPs that simply have MP3 codecs in ROM. We can download new codecs in them and we will be the first to celebrate if we can get OGG or FLAC or anything into these DSPs. Unfortunately, we have no docs or tools for writing new MAS DSP code and Micronas is very secretive about it. If anyone can help, please get in touch!

The recent release of Tremor (integer Ogg decoder) indicates it uses around 100 KB for lookup tables. That's not unreasonable for a decoder, but we only have 4 KB for both code *and* data. So the grim reality is that Ogg will never be supported by the Archos Players and Recorders.

[jcoalson]

Well, at the documentation they say like this regarding the Archos:

...
The recent release of Tremor (integer Ogg decoder) indicates it uses around 100 KB for lookup tables. That's not unreasonable for a decoder, but we only have 4 KB for both code *and* data. So the grim reality is that Ogg will never be supported by the Archos Players and Recorders.

to do FLAC in 4KB would require a trimmed down and unbuffered decoder. it's possible, but not easy.

Josh

[rfarris]

Yeah, I peddled my bike as fast as I could over to the Rockbox website and found the same old information.

So what was the relevance of:

there might be FLAC support in the Iriver H-series, thanks to the Iriver Rockbox port

The Rockbox software doesn't have flac. How will porting it to the iRiver suddenly enable flac on iRiver?

[Emanuel]

First off all, I am not a programmer/developer, I'm just citing what other people are saying at iriver.us. Also keep in mind that the work of porting started just about a week ago, and there are still a lot of research to do before anything is settled. So there is absolutely no promise that this alternate firmware will ever happen. The only thing we know is that the project leader, Björn, is interested in making this port with help from others.

Having that said, part of the job of porting, includes writing a codec driver. H-1XX series is using different chips and has a different design in hardware. If I understand this right, and please correct me if I'm wrong on this one, that means the memory space for writing codecs might be bigger than in Archos. Since flac support is one of the more requested, I wouldn't be surprised if they will look closer into it if/when the time comes.

As you can see, this is just speculation.

Please also notice the word might in by first post :

[pike]

I spent some time on their irc channel lately (rockbox) and the 2 platforms are very different, for starters, Archos uses a hardware mp3 decoder, thus adding support for other formats never happened.

Iriver IHP/H series has a general cpu (coldfire) and decoding is done in software. There's no limitations that I know of what can be supported. What WILL BE supported is a different matter.

And remember, they make no promises yet... BUT they will try to port their "firmware" to the H series, after they figured the hardware out.

[rfarris]

I see. You guys are using "port" in a different way than I do. To me, to port software is to take the existing source code and make it work on a new platform, making only such changes as are necessary to accomodate differences in the platforms.

You're using "port" to mean "create a new product loosely based on an existing one." Fair enough, I guess.

[Emanuel]

I guess we are talking about the same thing, you an I. The "port" will, as far as I know, be the Roxkbox firmware, written for the different hardware model H-1XX is based on. Although, the hardware differences opens for extensions not availabe on Archos, such as flac decoding.

[Emanuel]

*wiping off dust*

For anyone interested, my H140 have been playing FLAC files almost perfectly the latest weeks thanks to the guys developing Rockbox.

[rasher]

Furthermore, more optimisations were done tonight, that should take the "almost" out of "almost perfectly" and bring the FLAC codec up to speed.

The changes are awaiting permission to enter Rockbox since we're in a feature freeze now, but they will probably be allowed in later today.

[Emanuel]

Hej Jonas,

Thanks for the splendid job you're doing, looking forward with excitement to try it out. Just out of curiosity, is this optimization counted as a new feature? Or are all bug fixes/optimizations awaiting autorization at this moment of feature freeze?

[rasher]

Hej Jonas,

Thanks for the splendid job you're doing, looking forward with excitement to try it out. Just out of curiosity, is this optimization counted as a new feature? Or are all bug fixes/optimizations awaiting autorization at this moment of feature freeze?

It was allowed in, partly because FLAC didn't play in some circumstances, which was a bug, and partly because it's code that isn't used on the Archos players which are the target of the soon-to-be release.

[Wintershade]

OK, did I get this right - does this mean that iRiver with the Rockbox firmware will support all those codecs listed on the Rockbox's site? (like Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, mp3 and so on?)

(sorry if I jumped in with a dumb question)

[Emanuel]

Not only will, it already does. If you are a H1xx owner not familiar with Rockbox, pay close attension to their beginner guide iRiverPortForNoobs. And also remember that you're doing the switch on your own risk. Iriver original firmware is still accessible though, even if you switch to Rockbox.

[Febs]

OK, did I get this right - does this mean that iRiver with the Rockbox firmware will support all those codecs listed on the Rockbox's site? (like Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, mp3 and so on?)

(sorry if I jumped in with a dumb question)

Listed where on the Rockbox site? There are a number of different pages on the Rockbox wiki that deal with codecs.

Rockbox on iriver currently supports MP3, Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, WAV, and WavPack. I believe that someone is working on ALAC and that it will be implemented once the current feature freeze is over.

Edit: Emanuel, the IriverPortforNewbs page is getting a bit dated at this point. The Online Manual page is a good place to start these days, as it contains links to detailed installation instructions, FAQ pages, and information about using Rockbox.

This post has been edited by Febs: Sep 9 2005, 13:18

[jaybeee]

Listed where on the Rockbox site?  There are a number of different pages on the Rockbox wiki that deal with codecs.

Here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SoundCodecs

If you go to the main IriverPort page you should be able to navigate fairly easily to most of the useful info.

[Emanuel]

Rockbox on iriver currently supports MP3, Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, WAV, and WavPack.  I believe that someone is working on ALAC and that it will be implemented once the current feature freeze is over.

You're right, there are many lists of sound codecs. But you forgot a codec worth mentioning that is also supposed to work already: AC3. I have only tested with two live dvd albums, 2 channel, and it worked prefectly. No seek support, though.