IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Recommended Ogg encoder
steelglam
post Sep 17 2012, 16:33
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 17-September 12
Member No.: 103214



Hello,

I'm a newbie to the ogg vorbis world, and I am trying to figure out which is the best encoder at the moment. I have an HP Pavilion laptop with an Intel Core i5-2430M processor, and running a 64-bit version of Windows 7. I am also using the newest version of Exact Audio Copy to rip CDs.

I've been using LAME 3.99.5, libsndfile 1.0.25 64bit to encode MP3s from CDs, but I'd like to try my hands at Ogg Vorbis. I read the Hydrogenaudio wiki on using EAC and Ogg Vorbis, but it seems a bit outdated, since I notice that RareWares has newer versions of the encoder posted.

My primary concern is sound quality, followed by file size, and then lastly encoding speed. I notice three different recent encoders on the RareWares site: Oggenc2.87 using libVorbis v1.3.3, Oggenc2.87 using aoTuVb6.03, and Oggenc2.87 using aoTuVb6.03 (Lancer Builds). But I can't seem to figure out the differences between them in terms of sound quality and file size.

Any insight is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
eahm
post Sep 17 2012, 16:48
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 886
Joined: 11-February 12
Member No.: 97076



Why do you want to switch to Ogg Vorbis NOW instead of going AAC or even wait for Opus?

I like "Oggenc2.87 using aoTuVb6.03 (Lancer Builds) - SSE3 Optimized x64 Only (1797kB)" http://www.rarewares.org/ogg-oggenc.php#oggenc-aotuv

This post has been edited by eahm: Sep 17 2012, 16:53
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
steelglam
post Sep 17 2012, 16:55
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 17-September 12
Member No.: 103214



QUOTE (eahm @ Sep 17 2012, 11:48) *
Why do you want to switch to Ogg Vorbis NOW instead of going AAC or even waiting for Opus?

Btw, I use "Oggenc2.87 using aoTuVb6.03 (Lancer Builds) - SSE3 Optimized x64 Only (1797kB)" http://www.rarewares.org/ogg-oggenc.php#oggenc-aotuv


I don't know what AAC and OPUS are. I'm kind of a neanderthal when it comes to these sorts of things. I heard some Ogg Vorbis files from my buddy and they sounded better than my MP3's, so I thought I'd switch. I'm using a Rockboxed Sansa Clip+.

So, AAC and OPUS are better than both Ogg Vorbis and MP3, both in terms of sound and size?

This post has been edited by steelglam: Sep 17 2012, 17:08
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pdq
post Sep 17 2012, 17:10
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 3309
Joined: 1-September 05
From: SE Pennsylvania
Member No.: 24233



Sansa Clip+ will play FLAC files. Have you considered that option?

Any reasonably high bitrate MP3 file (properly created) should be indistinguishable from an ogg vorbis encode. Are you sure there wasn't something else going on when you compared?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
steelglam
post Sep 17 2012, 17:20
Post #5





Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 17-September 12
Member No.: 103214



QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 17 2012, 12:10) *
Sansa Clip+ will play FLAC files. Have you considered that option?

Any reasonably high bitrate MP3 file (properly created) should be indistinguishable from an ogg vorbis encode. Are you sure there wasn't something else going on when you compared?


I've got 4000+ songs on my Clip. FLAC isn't an option...too big.

I don't think there was anything else going on. I tried it using his settings on EAC, Ogg Vorbis q6. But he uses an old "lancer" version (from 2006) of the Ogg encoder, he noted he hasn't updated to anything newer. Anyhow...I ripped about 10 albums at this setting and loaded them on my Clip. I then compared them to the 320kbps MP3's (of the same albums) already on my player, and I preferred the Ogg files. To my ears, the Ogg files were less harsh, less brittle, fuller and more natural sounding, and had fewer artifacts.

I figured that since there were newer versions of the Ogg encoder out, that they would be even better. But I'm not sure which is best.

This post has been edited by steelglam: Sep 17 2012, 17:22
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pdq
post Sep 17 2012, 17:24
Post #6





Group: Members
Posts: 3309
Joined: 1-September 05
From: SE Pennsylvania
Member No.: 24233



You need to be careful of unsupported claims of audible quality, else you may be in violation of TOS #8.

Granted you will get less than 1000 songs in FLAC, but do you really need so many?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
edwardar
post Sep 17 2012, 17:24
Post #7





Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 8-July 04
Member No.: 15139



Unless things have changed lately, I believe using Ogg Vorbis on the Sansa clip and fuze in rockbox consumes less battery power than MP3 and AAC. This is a priority for me. The fact that Ogg Vorbis achieves transparency at lower bitrates than MP3 for me is a bonus.

I also use the version eahm refers to (though I use the x86 version).
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
skamp
post Sep 17 2012, 17:26
Post #8





Group: Developer
Posts: 1344
Joined: 4-May 04
From: France
Member No.: 13875



QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 17 2012, 18:24) *
Granted you will get less than 1000 songs in FLAC, but do you really need so many?


I do. Please get off my lawn.

QUOTE (edwardar @ Sep 17 2012, 18:24) *
Unless things have changed lately, I believe using Ogg Vorbis on the Sansa clip and fuze in rockbox consumes less battery power than MP3 and AAC. This is a priority for me.


Musepack uses even less power.

This post has been edited by skamp: Sep 17 2012, 17:30


--------------------
caudec.net
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
steelglam
post Sep 17 2012, 17:34
Post #9





Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 17-September 12
Member No.: 103214



QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 17 2012, 12:24) *
You need to be careful of unsupported claims of audible quality, else you may be in violation of TOS #8.

Granted you will get less than 1000 songs in FLAC, but do you really need so many?


Sorry, I didn't realize that part of the terms of service. Well, I'll retract my statement then. Let's just say that I'd like to use Ogg.

Yes, I want that many songs on my player. I have FLAC files for home use, but the lossy formats are fine for my portable player...and with that in mind, I'm looking for the best quality vs. size tradeoff. Right now I'm using MP3 320, but I'm not completely satisfied with it. So, I thought I'd make the change to Ogg, since I liked what I heard. For the albums that I already have ripped in FLAC, I can transcode the FLAC files to Ogg using Foobar2000. For those that I have not yet ripped, I can use EAC to encode to Ogg on the fly.

This post has been edited by steelglam: Sep 17 2012, 17:38
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
steelglam
post Sep 17 2012, 18:34
Post #10





Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 17-September 12
Member No.: 103214



QUOTE (edwardar @ Sep 17 2012, 12:24) *
Unless things have changed lately, I believe using Ogg Vorbis on the Sansa clip and fuze in rockbox consumes less battery power than MP3 and AAC. This is a priority for me. The fact that Ogg Vorbis achieves transparency at lower bitrates than MP3 for me is a bonus.

I also use the version eahm refers to (though I use the x86 version).


Thanks, I'll try that one (the x64 version). It was the one that I was eyeing, frankly.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
eahm
post Sep 17 2012, 19:34
Post #11





Group: Members
Posts: 886
Joined: 11-February 12
Member No.: 97076



QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 17 2012, 09:24) *
Granted you will get less than 1000 songs in FLAC, but do you really need so many?

I will never understand these questions. He can use 100000 files for what I care.

QUOTE (edwardar @ Sep 17 2012, 09:24) *
Unless things have changed lately, I believe using Ogg Vorbis on the Sansa clip and fuze in rockbox consumes less battery power than MP3 and AAC. This is a priority for me. The fact that Ogg Vorbis achieves transparency at lower bitrates than MP3 for me is a bonus.

I also use the version eahm refers to (though I use the x86 version).

Actually, MP3 gives better battery life than Ogg Vorbis and AAC even better than Ogg Vorbis. I can't find the article now because I am working but I'm sure it's one of the first links on Google.

Remember the Sansa has 8000 file limit, it's doesn't work over 8000.

Also, MP3 achieve transparency around 192kbps, Ogg Vorbis around 160kbps, AAC even less (let's say 128kbps) and Opus is supposed to achieve it at even less bitrates (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Transparency) but really, AAC is fenomenal and it's becoming the new widely used lossy format, Apple also uses it with iTunes. If you use True VBR q63 you will have very small transparent files with the average of 135kbps. You will fit 4000 AAC files in ~16GB.

This post has been edited by eahm: Sep 17 2012, 19:43
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
lvqcl
post Sep 17 2012, 19:48
Post #12





Group: Developer
Posts: 3218
Joined: 2-December 07
Member No.: 49183



QUOTE (eahm @ Sep 17 2012, 22:34) *
Actually, MP3 gives better battery life than Ogg Vorbis and AAC even better than Ogg Vorbis. I can't find the article now because I am working but I'm sure it's one of the first links on Google.

OP uses Rockbox, so: "performance comparisons of various codecs in Rockbox on arm9e (specifically a Sansa Clipv2)"
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
AliceWonder
post Sep 25 2012, 01:45
Post #13





Group: Members
Posts: 119
Joined: 13-July 12
From: California
Member No.: 101393



I'd like to comment on this.

The reason I like Ogg Vorbis is patents.

At least in the United States (where I live) both MP3 and AAC are covered by patents and that means even if I have permission to share the file on my web site or stream it over internet radio, since patented methods were used to compress the files for broadcast (even though website and internet radio are technically unicast, they are both considered broadcast for legal purposes) the patents need to be licensed.

MP3 licensing says they don't care if you gross less than 100K/yr and I'm not sure what AAC licensing says, but with vorbis it isn't ever even an issue.

Maybe Opus is worth using in the future, but for me anyway right now Vorbis works out of the box on my Linux installs and most of my web browsers.

For encoding I use aoTuV 6.0.3b fork of libvorbis and the oggenc that is part of standard vorbis-tools from xiph.org.

I use q1 for web sites and portable player and I use q5 for desktop pc.

The only time I ever use AAC is when encoding audio for a h.264/AVC video, in which case I use ffmpeg's AAC encoder which sucks but I don't own nero so ... I'll be using webm for all video soon so soon I won't even be using AAC there (but I rarely do video encoding anyway).

The only time I ever use MP3 is for my iPod and for html5 audio fallback for Safari and IE which do not natively support Ogg Vorbis. There I use lame V7 for web and V2 for iPod (which I rarely use, but I do when I want to look hipster).

This post has been edited by AliceWonder: Sep 25 2012, 01:47
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
saratoga
post Sep 25 2012, 01:57
Post #14





Group: Members
Posts: 4718
Joined: 2-September 02
Member No.: 3264



QUOTE (lvqcl @ Sep 17 2012, 14:48) *
QUOTE (eahm @ Sep 17 2012, 22:34) *
Actually, MP3 gives better battery life than Ogg Vorbis and AAC even better than Ogg Vorbis. I can't find the article now because I am working but I'm sure it's one of the first links on Google.

OP uses Rockbox, so: "performance comparisons of various codecs in Rockbox on arm9e (specifically a Sansa Clipv2)"


I'm actually kind of curious what the link was hes thinking of since the Clip/Clip+ don't even support AAC without Rockbox.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Oggie-Ben-Doggie
post Oct 2 2012, 12:45
Post #15





Group: Members
Posts: 13
Joined: 24-December 08
Member No.: 64829



Ogg Vorbis is my preferred format for portable listening at the moment. I use the following settings:

oggenc --quality 6 --advanced-encode-option impulse_noisetune=-6

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
spicymeatball77
post Apr 19 2013, 21:08
Post #16





Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 16-January 09
Member No.: 65658



QUOTE (eahm @ Sep 17 2012, 10:48) *
Why do you want to switch to Ogg Vorbis NOW instead of going AAC or even wait for Opus?

I don't understand what you mean here. Vorbis is actively being developed isn't it?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
AshenTech
post May 28 2013, 06:28
Post #17





Group: Members
Posts: 78
Joined: 11-November 08
Member No.: 62144



QUOTE (eahm @ Sep 17 2012, 12:34) *
QUOTE (pdq @ Sep 17 2012, 09:24) *
Granted you will get less than 1000 songs in FLAC, but do you really need so many?

I will never understand these questions. He can use 100000 files for what I care.

QUOTE (edwardar @ Sep 17 2012, 09:24) *
Unless things have changed lately, I believe using Ogg Vorbis on the Sansa clip and fuze in rockbox consumes less battery power than MP3 and AAC. This is a priority for me. The fact that Ogg Vorbis achieves transparency at lower bitrates than MP3 for me is a bonus.

I also use the version eahm refers to (though I use the x86 version).

Actually, MP3 gives better battery life than Ogg Vorbis and AAC even better than Ogg Vorbis. I can't find the article now because I am working but I'm sure it's one of the first links on Google.

Remember the Sansa has 8000 file limit, it's doesn't work over 8000.

Also, MP3 achieve transparency around 192kbps, Ogg Vorbis around 160kbps, AAC even less (let's say 128kbps) and Opus is supposed to achieve it at even less bitrates (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Transparency) but really, AAC is fenomenal and it's becoming the new widely used lossy format, Apple also uses it with iTunes. If you use True VBR q63 you will have very small transparent files with the average of 135kbps. You will fit 4000 AAC files in ~16GB.


reading comprehension fail?

1. hes using rockbox http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaRuntime
as the other fellow above pointed out, rockbox ogg support means better battery life with vorbis then aac or mp3.

2. rockbox dosnt have a file limit as far as i know, i had well over 8000 files on my fuze when I had it without issues.
also the file limit only matters if you use tag based browsing, if, like many of us you use the file/folder browser your uneffected byt his limit.

3. im calling BS on your assertion that AAC sounds better then vorbis, this is very much a subjective thing, but in my personal opinion, ogg is the best widely supported lossy format at the moment, MusePack is better ad mid/high rates, but has very little(no) support beyond rockbox and android for mobile use.

Now I will also say that for ultra low bitrates RealAudio is STILL the best choice on rockbox,but its really not a well supported format and the encoders for it are very very slow.

Opus isnt supported by any devices OrignalFirmware that i know of, where ogg is supported by alot of players on them market out of the box.

I had a Coby POS that had ogg support, as well as a GPX(another total pos), for quality devices, sandisk/sansa all support ogg, though with rockbox you get better support, samsung players and phones that dont run BREW all support ogg out of the box.(brew sucks...), cowon, iriver and many others support ogg out of the box, oh yeah and anything running android can play vorbis normally with the built in player in my exp.

AAC is OK, but it is not the king of mid to low bitrate, and honestly, in my testing most files dont need more the q6 vorbis infact many are 100% transparent at as low as q2(less complex stuff like alot of rap), no file i have found needed more then q9 to get rid of very rare errors(less then 1 in 100 files in my exp)

mp3, i dont have golden ears, but, I can spot encode errors in many tracks even as high as 320k when using 1/2 decent iem's or cans.....its like a skip on a cd, once hear it you cant unhear it.......if you know what i mean.....

this is all subjective though, audio quality is what the listener perceives it to be, if you like MP3 or AAC go for it thats all good, Sadly when i was in highschool long ago i did a paper on audio compression and learned to hear mp3 artifacts, at the time i was on lower end sony earbuds, that did a good job covering up artifacts at higher bitrates.....but since then, its driven me nuts when i hear a bad encode....

I can put up with 256k and up mp3 files, below that.....i duno i can just spot it.....

AAC....is great if the device dosnt support vorbis.


again all of the above is as I perceive it, each person will have their own opinion on this subject, and each person will decide what sounds best per birate to them, Im not making a technical claim just one on how I perceive the situation.

QUOTE (spicymeatball77 @ Apr 19 2013, 14:08) *
QUOTE (eahm @ Sep 17 2012, 10:48) *
Why do you want to switch to Ogg Vorbis NOW instead of going AAC or even wait for Opus?

I don't understand what you mean here. Vorbis is actively being developed isn't it?

AAC has its positive side but vorbis is more efficent in rockbox and the OF of the player dosnt even support aac.

Opus....does RB even have opus yet?

the Opus encoder i have is SLOW, give it time and OPUS will mature but for now, vorbis is the better option IMHO, specially with rockbox, to the OP, I would suggest q6 or even 5, depending on what your encoding test between q0 and q6, doubt you will have many tracks that will need more then q6 to be transparent, of over 20,000 files I have, only a hand full have needed more then q8 to be 100% fine....

I also suggest looking over the thread that talks about vorbis acceleration, there are a few builds in that thread that are very fast.

theres nothing wrong with the lancer encoder for music either though, I still use the lacer MT version of oggdrop at times for large files smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
db1989
post May 28 2013, 11:41
Post #18





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 5171
Joined: 23-June 06
Member No.: 32180



QUOTE (AshenTech @ May 28 2013, 06:28) *
mp3, i dont have golden ears, but, I can spot encode errors in many tracks even as high as 320k when using 1/2 decent iem's or cans.....its like a skip on a cd, once hear it you cant unhear it.......if you know what i mean.....

this is all subjective though, audio quality is what the listener perceives it to be
It is indeed subjective, but pointing that out does not relieve you of the obligation to comply with TOS #8 like every other user. . .quite the opposite, in fact, as TOS #8 exists to preclude pointless subjectivity filling up the site. For claims such as yours, double-blind tests are required as evidence, otherwise they are not valid to post. Perhaps it is the case that you can hear such differences, but unless you can verify that while claiming it, it serves no purpose here.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DonP
post May 28 2013, 13:16
Post #19





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 1469
Joined: 11-February 03
From: Vermont
Member No.: 4955



QUOTE (AshenTech @ May 28 2013, 01:28) *
Opus....does RB even have opus yet?


Yes. It is still pretty inefficient so my older Sansa E200 can only play up to about 50 kb/s without dragging down the user interface. The developers say they have places for improvement. A newer player with faster processor should be ok with higher bit rates.

For now I use it for things like audiobooks which sound fine to me at 12 kb/s if it's pure speech, or higher if they have incidental music.

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
spicymeatball77
post May 28 2013, 15:26
Post #20





Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 16-January 09
Member No.: 65658



QUOTE (AshenTech @ May 28 2013, 00:28) *
vorbis is the better option IMHO, specially with rockbox, to the OP, I would suggest q6 or even 5, depending on what your encoding test between q0 and q6, doubt you will have many tracks that will need more then q6 to be transparent, of over 20,000 files I have, only a hand full have needed more then q8 to be 100% fine....

I'm running Rockbox on my Clip+ and for me this has worked out fine. I use Q6 exclusively now since my ABX tests in Foobar comparing FLAC to OGG Vorbis Q6 was fairly definitive on 12 samples (31% I was guessing).
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Pellaeon
post Sep 10 2013, 20:13
Post #21





Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 13-April 13
Member No.: 107652



QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Sep 24 2012, 18:45) *
I'd like to comment on this.

The reason I like Ogg Vorbis is patents.


Agreed. Over the last few month's i've redone my old music collection from CD's into the Ogg Vorbis encoder Oggenc2.87 using libVorbis v1.3.3 at -Q9 setting and compared to the last time I had done that about ten years ago with LAME 3.91 encoder to me anyways it's a huge difference in quality. Note I haven't done any double blind quality tests or things like that but I like having a format that's patent free. Foobar2000 plays them just fine with embedded artwork and i've found under Linux the Audacious player works just as good for showing embedded artwork as well.

In the future I may try Opus but for now i'm happy with Ogg Vorbis. smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
testyou
post Sep 10 2013, 22:43
Post #22





Group: Members
Posts: 91
Joined: 24-September 10
Member No.: 84113



Many MP3 patents have expired, and:
QUOTE (Wikipedia)
...patents required to implement MP3 expired in most countries by December 2012, 21 years after the publication of ISO CD 11172.
An exception is the United States, where patents filed prior to 8 June 1995 expire 17 years after the publication date of the patent...
...MP3 decoding may be patent-free in the US by September 2015 when U.S. Patent 5,812,672 expires which had a PCT filing in Oct 1992.

For AAC licensing:
QUOTE (Wikipedia)
No licenses or payments are required to be able to stream or distribute content in AAC format.
However, a patent license is required for all manufacturers or developers of AAC codecs.

This patent stuff is off topic though.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Pellaeon
post Oct 17 2013, 21:05
Post #23





Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 13-April 13
Member No.: 107652



QUOTE (testyou @ Sep 10 2013, 15:43) *
Many MP3 patents have expired, and:
QUOTE (Wikipedia)
...patents required to implement MP3 expired in most countries by December 2012, 21 years after the publication of ISO CD 11172.
An exception is the United States, where patents filed prior to 8 June 1995 expire 17 years after the publication date of the patent...
...MP3 decoding may be patent-free in the US by September 2015 when U.S. Patent 5,812,672 expires which had a PCT filing in Oct 1992.

For AAC licensing:
QUOTE (Wikipedia)
No licenses or payments are required to be able to stream or distribute content in AAC format.
However, a patent license is required for all manufacturers or developers of AAC codecs.

This patent stuff is off topic though.


But who's to say that the decoding patent may not be renewed come 2015? I'm actually suprised Fraunhofer IIS didn't renew the 2012 patent you mentioned. I don't see the patent stuff being offtopic it's a valid reason for myself and others to use Ogg Vorbis especially when the MP3 format has been plagued over the year's with so many different encoders of crappy quality over the last 10-13 years. In effect LAME has been the only "DECENT" mp3 encoder out there the last decade as it is trying to do the best it can with the MP3 format in general.

Opus still needs time IMHO to mature more and more support in hardware from the companies that make the portable players to even be considered down the road.

But knowing the general "Average Joe (or Jane)" type of person they think MP3 is the be all end all of digital music and that format will probably be around for another 10-15 years right along with Apple's version of AAC for those who don't know better and realize that alternatives such as FLAC, Ogg Vorbis, and Opus exist.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
saratoga
post Oct 17 2013, 21:24
Post #24





Group: Members
Posts: 4718
Joined: 2-September 02
Member No.: 3264



QUOTE (Pellaeon @ Oct 17 2013, 16:05) *
But who's to say that the decoding patent may not be renewed come 2015?


Patents cannot be renewed in the USA. Once they expire they are done forever.

I think actually the last patent needed for a stereo decoder expired a few weeks ago.


Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd April 2014 - 11:45