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High End CD Players - Worth it?
fewtch
post Jun 7 2002, 22:26
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Pio2001


What about a Duron ?
I just removed the fan. It ran ok at 75 C.

75 C? :eek:

Let's hope you don't leave it that way, or you just created a processor with a MTBF of about 48 hours! tongue.gif


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Pio2001
post Jun 8 2002, 00:41
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I let it ran for several monthes like that. No problem. BSOD appears near 85 - 90 C.
Now my setup is different, it's 61 C with a case fan in front of the bare heatsink.

It is said that the mobo thermal sensors don't give the real temperature. Maybe the Asus A7V 133 C I have is more sensitive and gives higher numbers than other mobo.
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CiTay
post Jun 8 2002, 00:57
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Pio2001
I let it ran for several monthes like that. No problem. BSOD appears near 85 - 90 C.
Now my setup is different, it's 61 C with a case fan in front of the bare heatsink.

It is said that the mobo thermal sensors don't give the real temperature. Maybe the Asus A7V 133 C I have is more sensitive and gives higher numbers than other mobo.


From a german ASUS FAQ: AMD processors don't have integrated temperature sensors. ASUS' sensor is beneath the CPU socket. Because the ASUS sensor doesn't measure the core temp, about 10C are added. The critical temp for Athlon CPUs is usually between 80 and 95C core temperature; critical temp for A7V-series is 65C (with a small headroom).
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Amadeus
post Jun 14 2002, 10:43
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Thank you all for the many replies on this topic so far.

Since the inital posting, I have spent my money on a Marantz CD Player (CD-17DAF), a Marantz Amplifier (Stereo, PM-17SA) and a pair of Yamaha NS-8HX speakers. It's certainly not up to the same level as some of the setups mentioned in this thread, but since I was quite impressed by the sound when I did my listening tests in the shop I figure it's alright. Right now, the only annoyance is indeed the noise from my computers as I am writing this reply. Ohh...and as for the cable: Since my cables are around 5m in length, I took your advice and bought some 'van den Hul M.C. D. 352 Hybrid (halogen free). They were expensive enough and matched the colour of my carpet biggrin.gif

Anyone thinks I got it wrong? Hope not...but comments (good + bad) welcome.

gdougherty wrote:
QUOTE
The only way that a Computer is going to sound remotely close to a really good CD player is if you're playing losslessly encoded (or straight wav) files ripped with something like EAC's secure mode

I understand that high end CD players have better error corrections built in. Since it is possible to rip a CD in secure mode, however, I wonder if there isn't a possibility to have a cd-player software performing the same task. As my rippings are done at a higher than 1x speed, this should be possible.

Routing this data through a high end DAC (LynxTwo) and from there into an amplifier....shouldn't this do the trick?


Annuka wrote:
QUOTE
A: Keep the power cables and signal cables seperated. Power cables are not shielded and will interfere with the signal. Interconnects with special shelding will provide an advantage if all cables are all tangled up.

B: Make sure you have the right power phase. Quite simple to do: Remove all cables from all units except power. Meassure the voltage from the casing of the unit to absolute ground. Then turn the power cable 180 degrees and meassure again. There can easily be voltage difference of 200 Volts. If this voltage is aligned over the shielding of the interconnects, the sound quality will be affected. Special interconnects with shield removed in one end (i.e. AudioQuest) can make a difference here.

I understand the logic behing point A. There are so many cables along the wall, however, that I have no idea how to keep them apart. Do you think my speaker cables might be shielded enough? Or would it help to provide some extra shielding by running the power cables in a plastic cable channel?
As for point B I lack both, the instruments to measure voltage as the knowledge to fully understand the point ('If this voltage is aligned ... ??? '). Can you please further elaborate on this?


Pio2001 wrote:
QUOTE
What about a Duron ? 
I just removed the fan. It ran ok at 75 C.

I am amazed...wouldn't have the courage trying this myself, but good result! Anyone tried this with two 1800+ MPs ?


Thanks again for the great input everyone tongue.gif:
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KikeG
post Jun 14 2002, 12:07
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Just one comment, the LynxTwo is indeed a (internal) soundcard, not a DAC. Though, I don't think you will find any consumer DAC that reaches the LynxTwo specs. Even only a few professional recording studio DACs can reach it.

As to the error correction thing... A EAC secure rip is the best you can get. But any decent cd player will do a perfect extraction (reading + error correction) of the data at the disc unless it is not severely scratched.

Edit: after rereading, I guess you didn't mean the LynxTwo is a DAC. By the way, sorry if I'm a bit picky sometimes. wink.gif
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Pio2001
post Jun 14 2002, 12:10
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus

I understand that high end CD players have better error corrections built in. Since it is possible to rip a CD in secure mode, however, I wonder if there isn't a possibility to have a cd-player software performing the same task. As my rippings are done at a higher than 1x speed, this should be possible.


CD player software can play CDs in two ways.
Windows CD Player, and Winamp 2 play the CD in "analog" mode, but you can connect the digital SPDIF out of the Drive to your soundcard and get "digital" analog mode wink.gif. You'll have exactly the same error correction as in a hifi player.

And you can use the "digital" playback, like Windows Media Player 7, Winamp 3, or CD Reader plugin for Winamp 2.
This is a digital extraction (a "rip"), usually at 4X speed. You don't need any other cable than the IDE one. There is no error correction (you 'll get clics if the CD is scratched). And no program will offer you realtime secure playback yet.

QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus
Routing this data through a high end DAC (LynxTwo) and from there into an amplifier....shouldn't this do the trick?


Yes, it's the way to go.
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gdougherty
post Jun 14 2002, 18:05
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Pio2001


connect the digital SPDIF out of the Drive to your soundcard and get "digital" analog mode wink.gif. You'll have exactly the same error correction as in a hifi player.


Oh so suddenly, instead of using the "lower quality" error correction circuitry then passing off to the internal DAC, it switches to using the "hifi grade" error correction circuitry and sends that signal out digitally for a sound card to handle.

Right.......

If you misunderstood, we're talking about the error correction ability that kicks in whenever a CD player can't properly read the audio data, not anything related to the DAC. The internal grades of components are also higher in a hifi, not to mention you're usually paying for an incredible set of DAC's that you're generally better off using over the pre-amp or receiver DACs in your stereo, assuming a short cable run between units.

G
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gdougherty
post Jun 14 2002, 18:32
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus
Thank you all for the many replies on this topic so far.

Since the inital posting, I have spent my money on a Marantz CD Player (CD-17DAF), a Marantz Amplifier (Stereo, PM-17SA) and a pair of Yamaha NS-8HX speakers. It's certainly not up to the same level as some of the setups mentioned in this thread, but since I was quite impressed by the sound when I did my listening tests in the shop I figure it's alright. Right now, the only annoyance is indeed the noise from my computers as I am writing this reply. Ohh...and as for the cable: Since my cables are around 5m in length, I took your advice and bought some 'van den Hul M.C. D. 352 Hybrid (halogen free). They were expensive enough and matched the colour of my carpet biggrin.gif

Anyone thinks I got it wrong? Hope not...but comments (good + bad) welcome.

Marantz makes good stuff and while Yamaha isn't my first choice in speakers, if they sound good to you and you listened to them against a bunch of other speakers to find something that works for your budget and your ears, then congrats and enjoy. I love my B&W bookshelf speakers but I've also got them mated with a 00 Velodyne SPL series subwoofer so their weaker (~50Hz) low-end isn't an issue. Like I said though, if they sound good to you and they didn't break the bank, you got a good deal.
QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus
I understand that high end CD players have better error corrections built in. Since it is possible to rip a CD in secure mode, however, I wonder if there isn't a possibility to have a cd-player software performing the same task. As my rippings are done at a higher than 1x speed, this should be possible. 

Routing this data through a high end DAC (LynxTwo) and from there into an amplifier....shouldn't this do the trick?

First off, why bother playing a single CD off your PC? Use the HD as the storage it's meant to be. Get a second drive for just audio if you need to, but playing back stored audio ripped in secure mode with EAC is the best way to go IMO. Depending on the size of your library you could probably even compress losslessly, though I do all mine with Musepack. Assuming all your CD's rip with no errors, this route makes the error correction argument moot. Output with a good stable clocked DAC or digital connection and you're good to go. Hosa makes 50ft optical cables, I'm running a 30ft cable from my bedroom to the stereo room, and I use the X10 RF MP3 remote to control winamp playback. No noise, good sound, it works.

QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus
I understand the logic behing point A. There are so many cables along the wall, however, that I have no idea how to keep them apart. Do you think my speaker cables might be shielded enough? Or would it help to provide some extra shielding by running the power cables in a plastic cable channel?
As for point B I lack both, the instruments to measure voltage as the knowledge to fully understand the point ('If this voltage is aligned ... ??? '). Can you please further elaborate on this?

As a general rule, don't run power/speaker cable and interconnects right next to each other in parallel, keep your speaker cable away from the interconnects as much as possible and cross cables at right angles. My speaker cables are Synergistic Research Silver/Copper Alpha cables that actually have a foil shield which helps some in theory. Most "good" interconnects are going to be pretty heavily shielded so for the most part as long as you're not running things parrallel and taped together for 5m (ie, next to each other), you're going to be fine.
For power phase, basically if your plugs are all three prong grounded, or the wide and fat two prong pairs and running into the same wall outlet this is a non-issue.
QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus
I am amazed...wouldn't have the courage trying this myself, but good result! Anyone tried this with two 1800+ MPs ?

Umm.... Don't. It's very possible to get adequate quiet HSF's and with proper aiflow through the case using a few super quiet case fans and rounded cables as well as a spacious case, you can keep the 1800+'s temps down. Without a fan they'll cook themselves.

G
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Pio2001
post Jun 14 2002, 23:00
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QUOTE
Originally posted by gdougherty
Oh so suddenly, instead of using the "lower quality" error correction circuitry


There is no "low" or "high" quality error correction, there is interpolation for uncorrected C2 errors (hifi / play CD command in computer, improperly called analog mode), or nothing at all (read CD command in computer, improperly called digital mode).

QUOTE
Originally posted by gdougherty

then passing off to the internal DAC


No, the SPDIF output (2-pin, near the analog output) bypasses the DAC.

I hope I understood you ???
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Annuka
post Jun 14 2002, 23:15
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus
Thank you all for the many replies on this topic so far.
I understand the logic behing point A. There are so many cables along the wall, however, that I have no idea how to keep them apart. Do you think my speaker cables might be shielded enough? Or would it help to provide some extra shielding by running the power cables in a plastic cable channel?


I don't know how well your speaker cables are shielded. It usually makes sense to keep all cables in _perfect_ order. (You might find Velcro and plastic strips quite useful). If you can keep a distance of a least 7 cm / 3" there shouldn't be much of a problem. Or at least there isn't for me.

QUOTE
Originally posted by Amadeus
As for point B I lack both, the instruments to measure voltage as the knowledge to fully understand the point ('If this voltage is aligned ... ??? '). Can you please further elaborate on this?


I'd rather not. My understanding of psysics/electronics is limited to high school and that's a decade ago. Maybe someone else can explain the technical aspect.

There's a mention of the phenomenon here:

>>>
Correct or reverse AC polarity on all components, as determined by either multi-meter measurements or through listening. Subtle but telltale improvements in detail and musical cues, perceived as an increase in soundstage and localization information. Music is more real. Depending on the component, you may also notice less grain and grit as a result of a lowered noise floor. Cost: free. Read The Wood Effect by Clark Johnsen for a thorough explanation, or back issues of Positive Feedback. Cost: free.
<<<

http://www.positive-feedback.com/tweaks.htm

Some of the ideas are rather wild, but this one is very old and free.
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