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MP3 Listening Test at 128 kbps, Call for encoders and settings
Sebastian Mares
post Jul 8 2008, 12:38
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Thanks a lot for your efforts and help! smile.gif Problem with my music is that most of it is progressive rock. I will try to do some tests in the near future (today or tomorrow evening).

If LAME 3.98 appears to be the only encoder that stands out of the rest, that would hopefully be no problem since you can fine tune the -V parameter.

This post has been edited by Sebastian Mares: Jul 8 2008, 12:42


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robert
post Jul 8 2008, 13:47
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QUOTE (Alex B @ Jul 8 2008, 13:35) *
I would like to ask Robert and Gabriel if there are some fundamental changes when, for instance, the setting is changed from -V5 to -V5.5 or -V5.7. In other words, should the integer steps still be preferred for some reason or is the -V scale now truly stepless?

Only yes/no settings in the presets may change on integer steps. All other parameters--except sfb21mod--are linear interpolated between step n and n+1. There is no reason to prefer integer steps.
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Sebastian Mares
post Jul 12 2008, 22:59
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Small status update:

- Real did not conact me
- Gogo will be replaced by LAME 3.97 -V5 --vbr-new
- LAME 3.97 -V5 --vbr-new produces an average bitrate of 136 kbps according to foobar2000 based on my collection of 1083 files

Since all encoders are close to the 135 kbps rate, we should choose some settings for LAME 3.98 that should average to 135 kbps.

This post has been edited by Sebastian Mares: Jul 12 2008, 22:59


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lvqcl
post Jul 12 2008, 23:57
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QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Jul 13 2008, 01:59) *
Small status update:

- Real did not conact me
- Gogo will be replaced by LAME 3.97 -V5 --vbr-new
- LAME 3.97 -V5 --vbr-new produces an average bitrate of 136 kbps according to foobar2000 based on my collection of 1083 files

Since all encoders are close to the 135 kbps rate, we should choose some settings for LAME 3.98 that should average to 135 kbps.

For my (much smaller sleep.gif ) test set: LAME 3.97 -V5 --vbr-new => 136.8 kbps. And LAME 3.98 produces the same bitrate somewhere at -V5.33.

And dependence between -V value and bitrate looks very linear within [5.2, 5.8] range.
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Sebastian Mares
post Jul 14 2008, 18:22
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Please suggest and / or upload samples here.


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CPKTV
post Jul 21 2008, 14:49
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FhG released MP3S CLE V1.5, but the download link is dead, they will fix download link soon:
http://www.all4mp3.com/tools/sw_fhg_cl.html
Whats New in Version 1.5:
New features - Encoder

Minor changes and bugfixes.
Now supporting files with 24 bit resolution
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CPKTV
post Jul 23 2008, 04:46
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Finally, download link is alive, download it here:
http://www.all4mp3.com/dev/download.aspx?n...15_20080530.zip
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ZinCh
post Aug 5 2008, 22:33
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what you think about lame 3.98 -V floatnumber multi-pass encode to get most close V to 128kbps size ("true abr")?

or this mode is not good for users and should be not tested (need more time for encode, etc)
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IgorC
post Aug 6 2008, 03:55
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Afaik there is no multipass switch in LAME.
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k.eight.a
post Aug 6 2008, 09:02
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QUOTE (CPKTV @ Jul 23 2008, 05:46) *
Finally, download link is alive, download it here:
http://www.all4mp3.com/dev/download.aspx?n...15_20080530.zip
No the link is broken, here it is: Fraunhofer IIS mp3surround command line utilities.


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gaekwad2
post Aug 6 2008, 10:10
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QUOTE (IgorC @ Aug 6 2008, 04:55) *
Afaik there is no multipass switch in LAME.

Also, multipass encodes would have to be done on the whole songs, using it with short samples would produce skewed results. (I think this was discussed before wrt Nero or WMA.)
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ZinCh
post Aug 6 2008, 15:33
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ok, case closed smile.gif
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CPKTV
post Aug 6 2008, 21:35
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QUOTE (k.eight.a @ Aug 6 2008, 00:02) *
QUOTE (CPKTV @ Jul 23 2008, 05:46) *
Finally, download link is alive, download it here:
http://www.all4mp3.com/dev/download.aspx?n...15_20080530.zip
No the link is broken, here it is: Fraunhofer IIS mp3surround command line utilities.


Download link works fine:
http://www.all4mp3.com/dev/download.aspx?n...15_20080530.zip
Check your connection.
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k.eight.a
post Aug 9 2008, 14:14
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QUOTE (CPKTV @ Aug 6 2008, 22:35) *
QUOTE (k.eight.a @ Aug 6 2008, 00:02) *
QUOTE (CPKTV @ Jul 23 2008, 05:46) *
Finally, download link is alive, download it here:
http://www.all4mp3.com/dev/download.aspx?n...15_20080530.zip
No the link is broken, here it is: Fraunhofer IIS mp3surround command line utilities.
Download link works fine:
http://www.all4mp3.com/dev/download.aspx?n...15_20080530.zip
Check your connection.
I've checked once again link. My connection is OK.

These are the links that work for me:

Win32 mp3 command line encoder (v1.5)
Win64 mp3 command line encoder (v1.5)
Mac OS X mp3 command line encoder (v1.5)
Linux32 mp3 command line encoder (v1.5)
Linux64 mp3 command line encoder (v1.5)

Sorry, but I can't help...


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CPKTV
post Aug 12 2008, 09:26
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Yes, you're right.
I don't know what they doing.
Did you download that?
Also, what's new in this version?
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Alex B
post Aug 20 2008, 15:44
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I finally had time to continue my bitrate tests with classsical music as I promised earlier in this thread (a thing called summer got in the way...)

After browsing through my lossless classical library I picked 25 "reference" tracks that should be quite representative. I avoided the extremely low and high lossless bitrates and tried to select tracks that have quite varied qualities.

Apparently iTunes has changed radically since my last test. Back then the 128 kbps VBR setting was suitable, but the 7.7 version uses bitrates in a more relaxed way and the 128 kbps VBR setting produces higher bitrates than before. Fortunately the 112 kbps VBR setting appears to be suitable for our test.

In addition, I retested the "various" bitrates with the latest encoder versions when applicable.

Since I didn't have the old iTunes version installed I couldn't test the "classical" bitrates with it (which would have been unnecessary anyway).

FhG, iTunes and LAME 3.97 have only one suitable VBR setting for this test so I'd suggest to calculate the average bitrate of these encoders and adjust the Helix and LAME 3.98 settings to match this average. Helix -V60 and LAME -V5.7 appear to be pretty close to this average with my test tracks.

Here are the new results:

Summary




Various - table and chart






Classical - table and chart






EDIT

I forgot to mention that if anyone wants to test FhG's bitrate behavior the bitrates must be measured correctly. Most programs don't show accurate bitrate values because FhG doesn't write Xing headers to VBR files.

I used EncSpot Pro's "full scan" option.

This post has been edited by Alex B: Aug 20 2008, 19:27


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Sebastian Mares
post Aug 20 2008, 18:13
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Thank you very much for your efforts Alex!


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[JAZ]
post Aug 20 2008, 19:14
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Mmm... there's a curious thing on those graphs, the performance of Itunes respect of the rest in a couple of files:
17 in the Various group, and in 5 and 19 in the Classical one. I guess this could point to flaws (killer samples) for it. Could you try abx'ing one of them?

(the 11 in the Various test is curious too, it shows an increase of bitrate where all the rest do the opposite)
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Alex B
post Aug 20 2008, 19:45
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QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Aug 20 2008, 11:14) *
Mmm... there's a curious thing on those graphs, the performance of Itunes respect of the rest in a couple of files:
17 in the Various group, and in 5 and 19 in the Classical one. I guess this could point to flaws (killer samples) for it. Could you try abx'ing one of them?

(the 11 in the Various test is curious too, it shows an increase of bitrate where all the rest do the opposite)

Yeah, displaying the measured values in a graph always shows interesting differences. We must remember that these values are from complete tracks and do not indicate how the encoders adjust bitrates on different parts of each track. Also, the bitrate is only one of the variables that a VBR encoder adjusts.

Since you are interested about the differences I'll check the tracks you mentioned and if they seem to be interesting for quality test purposes I'll post samples.


EDIT

I wonder what is wrong with the quotation system. The quote doesn't appear to show up correctly. I tried to fix it a couple of times.
CODE
It changes
[quote name='[JAZ]' date='Aug 20 2008, 21:14' post='583720']
to
[quote]' date='Aug 20 2008, 21:14' post='583720']


Moderation: Fixed your bracket problem. ;)

This post has been edited by greynol: Aug 20 2008, 20:02


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Sebastian Mares
post Aug 20 2008, 20:00
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QUOTE (Alex B @ Aug 20 2008, 20:45) *
I wonder what is wrong with the quotation system. The quote doesn't appear to show up correctly. I tried to fix it a couple of times.


It doesn't like brackets in names because IB.Code tags are also enclosed in brackets. Bug is fixed in latest IPB 2.3.5.

This post has been edited by Sebastian Mares: Aug 20 2008, 20:02


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greynol
post Aug 20 2008, 20:04
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type

"&-#-9-1-;" for a "["

and

"&-#-9-3-;" for a "]"

(but don't include the dashes)

This post has been edited by greynol: Aug 20 2008, 20:08


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[JAZ]
post Aug 21 2008, 19:03
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QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Aug 20 2008, 21:00) *
It doesn't like brackets in names because IB.Code tags are also enclosed in brackets. Bug is fixed in latest IPB 2.3.5.


ohmy.gif blush.gif rolleyes.gif lalala.gif
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Bodhi
post Aug 21 2008, 20:00
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QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Sep 6 2007, 09:28) *
(iPods not dealing well with LAME VBR)

What do you mean by that?

Great Job Alex. I think it's "sad" getting 188 Kbps files while using iTunes 128 VBR !!! sad.gif

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greynol
post Aug 21 2008, 20:13
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It is a shame. I expressed concerns about not giving iTunes a fair shake last year, but if their 128 setting produces such high bitrates...

IIRC, with iTunes in VBR mode, the selected bitrate is the minimum bitrate.


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IgorC
post Sep 2 2008, 05:11
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Well, any news?
It was already one month and half since call for samples. What is situation around the test?
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