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Discussion of v1.1.15’s changes to handling of rating field in ID3v2, [posts #6–13 split from final release thread]
someone8
post Sep 15 2012, 14:02
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Previously, I always used a rating scheme which also incorporates one decimal place (mostly .5). But after the recent rating tag change

QUOTE (db1989 @ Sep 15 2012, 12:45) *
■ ID3v2: “rating” tags now compatible with Windows Media Player (beta 2).


, my old habit can't be realized anymore, as only the number without the decimal places is saved (to assure WMP compatibility). However, if write a "6" (or any higher number) in the rating tag with foobar, it is saved but will never be compatible with WMP. So can the developers please enable the possibility to save floating numbers again, and only write WMP compatible rating tags, if the written rating is [1 2 3 4 5]? This would help me a lot, because I wouldn't have to modify my whole music library to use a custom rating tag or switching to a [1 2 3 ... 10] (from a [1.0 1.5 2.0 2.5 ... 5]) rating.

Thanks in advance!
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q-stankovic
post Sep 15 2012, 16:38
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Why don't you use just another tag? smile.gif
Instead of RATING you could use f.e. MY_RATING or RATED or any other name.

This post has been edited by q-stankovic: Sep 15 2012, 16:39


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someone8
post Sep 15 2012, 17:39
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As I already said, this would be an option but quite an effort to apply it to the whole library. Additionally, maybe other guys have the same problem. I think the WMP compatibility approach should be reconsidered, as it's not fully compatible when one has it's own rating scheme and using values above 5 for example for finer "rating resolution" (like IMDB rating 1 to 10)
For a long time, I also used 1 to 5 rating. But at some time, it wasn't enough and switched to decimal.

And don't forget this argument: who cares about WMP, when we have foobar2000, right? wink.gif
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MDMA
post Sep 15 2012, 17:42
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It's not an effort to apply it to the whole library. Select all your tracks, right click > Properties, Add your custom rating field of choice, then select "format from other fields" and set it simply to %rating%
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someone8
post Sep 15 2012, 18:24
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OK, thanks. I will do that. But still, strange behavior. dry.gif

This post has been edited by someone8: Sep 15 2012, 18:26
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BenB
post Sep 15 2012, 19:32
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QUOTE
http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog
■ ID3v2: “rating” tags now compatible with Windows Media Player (beta 2).


Did anyone stop to consider the possibility of a shared media library where one person uses WMP and another uses foobar? Different people have differing tastes which means they'll have separate ratings. One, both or all parties will have to refrain from writing their ratings tags to file (in foobar and WMP) or face having to deal with other people's ratings overwriting theirs. I predict lots of unhappy campers.

I believe further discussion is warranted but it should be in a separate thread.

This post has been edited by BenB: Sep 15 2012, 19:44
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shakey_snake
post Sep 15 2012, 19:46
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QUOTE
Did anyone stop to consider the possibility of a shared media library where one person uses WMP and another uses foobar?


You are correct that writing user statistics to file tags isn't an idea compatible for multi-user environments. This is why the official rating component still maintains a separate database for user specific data (ratings and playback statistics), rather than writing them to the file's tags.

However, for people who insist on writing rating to tags, the way the POPM tag frame is written to is now compatible for them.

This post has been edited by shakey_snake: Sep 15 2012, 19:52


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BenB
post Sep 15 2012, 21:01
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I don't think foobar writing a POPM frame belonging to another software is a good idea. It would be better that foobar writes a POPM frame of its own. This would prevent the situation I described above. If compatibility is needed, then give users the option of exporting their foobar rating to a separate WMP POPM frame.

I need to make one clarification related to my initial post. I incorrectly (but I think reasonably) assumed that because foobar can write a WMP POPM frame that it would also see existing frames and import them for ratings. foobar does NOT do this so if other household members use global ratings in WMP, they can do so without affecting other household members using foobar. foobar users shouldn't write their ratings' tags to file if in the scenario I described in my first post.

This post has been edited by BenB: Sep 15 2012, 21:07
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neothe0ne
post Sep 15 2012, 22:31
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I think a nice compromise would be having an advanced option to toggle what the Rating tag is saved to. (So that we can turn off the WMP compatibility)
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shakey_snake
post Sep 15 2012, 23:20
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QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 16:01) *
I don't think foobar writing a POPM frame belonging to another software is a good idea. It would be better that foobar writes a POPM frame of its own.
Please stop.

You are entirely out of your league and don't even seem to understand grasp the basics of the situation, so please save us from your "fix suggestions". I'm sorry if this seems curt, but I am here in attempt to clarify what the changelog means, I don't need you getting 10 steps ahead of yourself.


QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 16:01) *
This would prevent the situation I described above.
There are many ways to avoid the situation you've described above, one of which has already been implemented in component that I shared above. Why not explore your available options, first, before burdening us with your half-baked ideas?

Until this fix was made there was no way to get the mp3 tag to correctly work between programs. Now there is. Compatibility enhancement added. End of story.

QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 16:01) *
I need to make one clarification related to my initial post. I incorrectly (but I think reasonably) assumed that because foobar can write a WMP POPM frame that it would also see existing frames and import them for ratings. foobar does NOT do this...
It can read a mp3's ratings (and add it to your user-specific statistics database), by using the "import statistics from file tags" feature found in the playback statistics menu.

QUOTE (neothe0ne @ Sep 15 2012, 17:31) *
I think a nice compromise would be having an advanced option to toggle what the Rating tag is saved to. (So that we can turn off the WMP compatibility)
If we added a new option every time one user didn't understand something...

This post has been edited by shakey_snake: Sep 15 2012, 23:26


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q-stankovic
post Sep 16 2012, 00:52
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If the aim is just to avoid the same tag in two different programs so - to repeat a question from another thread - why don't you use fb2k's full capability and use another tag? Let's say: <BENB_RATING>. Via advanced preferences you can make this tag appear in properties dialog and selection info viewer as "rating" what you can use also as name for playlist or facet columns. Is it so important how the name of the frame is?

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BenB
post Sep 16 2012, 00:59
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QUOTE (shakey_snake @ Sep 15 2012, 17:20) *
Please stop.

You are entirely out of your league and don't even seem to understand grasp the basics of the situation, so please save us from your "fix suggestions". I'm sorry if this seems curt, but I am here in attempt to clarify what the changelog means, I don't need you getting 10 steps ahead of yourself.

There is no need for personal insults. You don't know me so please refrain from characterizing me or my abilities. I could say more in this regard but I'm not going to engage anyone in a dick-measuring contest. It's irrelevant and pointless. Again, there is no need to make this personal.
QUOTE (shakey_snake @ Sep 15 2012, 17:20) *
There are many ways to avoid the situation you've described above, one of which has already been implemented in component that I shared above. Why not explore your available options, first, before burdening us with your half-baked ideas?

I'm well aware of the various ways to get around the situation and I alluded to them in my previous posts. For the record, this change doesn't affect me. I never write ratings tags to files. I'm speaking up for those who can't or won't speak up for themselves. Now I have a question for you: Why doesn't development seek any input from foobar users before making changes which might negatively affect the users?
QUOTE (shakey_snake @ Sep 15 2012, 17:20) *
Until this fix was made there was no way to get the mp3 tag to correctly work between programs. Now there is. Compatibility enhancement added. End of story.

I wasn't aware there was a high demand for this change. I've not seen any recent posts in this regard. The change doesn't affect me as I've already stated. I'm a fan of compatibility between programs. I raised valid concerns in regard to how this change might affect users and suggested a remedy. Development can take them into consideration or ignore them. I stated my case.
QUOTE (shakey_snake @ Sep 15 2012, 17:20) *
It can read a mp3's ratings (and add it to your user-specific statistics database), by using the "import statistics from file tags" feature found in the playback statistics menu.

I didn't clarify myself enough. I meant it doesn't import those ratings automatically, forcing users to have to change ratings which aren't theirs. I took it for granted that others would take what I was saying in the context of a multi-user environment (indeed all of my comments were in that context), which I shouldn't have done.
QUOTE (shakey_snake @ Sep 15 2012, 17:20) *
If we added a new option every time one user didn't understand something...

Rather flippant remark (and a mischaracterization if you were referring to me).

I do request that this discussion be split into a separate thread, at least from my second post (with relevant references from earlier posts included, of course).

This post has been edited by BenB: Sep 16 2012, 01:38
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EpicForever
post Sep 16 2012, 21:00
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QUOTE (q-stankovic @ Sep 16 2012, 00:52) *
If the aim is just to avoid the same tag in two different programs so - to repeat a question from another thread - why don't you use fb2k's full capability and use another tag? Let's say: <BENB_RATING>. Via advanced preferences you can make this tag appear in properties dialog and selection info viewer as "rating" what you can use also as name for playlist or facet columns. Is it so important how the name of the frame is?


Hahaha biggrin.gif This is exactly what I have done, singing loudly how great media player is foobar. I was so loud that my wife called to me "shut up idiot" smile.gif . It's funny to see that some foobar users are completely unaware what they could do with their software smile.gif . I've never seen such configurable application - especially media player smile.gif . I added several own tag types, gave them descriptive names displayed in Properties Window, created own columns using them and I'm happiest music listener around the world smile.gif . Leave "POPM" - use "BENB_RATING" instead smile.gif

Now, the only thing that I need is AIFF tagging - reading and writing metadata from and to AIFF files smile.gif . 1.1.16 todo list number one wink.gif
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db1989
post Sep 17 2012, 12:32
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QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 19:32) *
QUOTE (db1989 @ Sep 15 2012, 12:45) *
■ ID3v2: “rating” tags now compatible with Windows Media Player (beta 2).
Did anyone stop to consider the possibility of a shared media library where one person uses WMP and another uses foobar? […]
I believe further discussion is warranted but it should be in a separate thread.

QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 16 2012, 00:59) *
I do request that this discussion be split into a separate thread, at least from my second post (with relevant references from earlier posts included, of course).

Done: I’ve split from the first post about ratings. Since the subject seems to have outgrown the original thread, I ask that interested users try to keep it here.
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shakey_snake
post Sep 17 2012, 13:47
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QUOTE (BenB @ Sep 15 2012, 19:59) *
I'm well aware of the various ways to get around the situation and I alluded to them in my previous posts. For the record, this change doesn't affect me. I never write ratings tags to files.

Great!

Discussion over, AFAIC.


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Defrance
post Sep 25 2012, 07:04
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I'd like to explain the issue this implementation has caused for me.

- I use The Godfather as my regular tagging software, and use foobar and The Godfather to rate tracks while listening to them.
- The Godfather uses the "Rating" tag for ratings, and has no support for reading or writing POPM.
- Unsurprisingly then, with 1.1.15, if a rate a track in foobar, it does not show up in the Rating field in The Godfather.

Because of the way this has been implemented in foobar:
- If I set The Godfather to not preserve all ID3v2 frames, it will wipe the POPM frame
- If I set The Godfather to preserve all ID3v2 frames, I will end up with both a POPM and a TXXX frame, this could lead to inconsistent tags (e.g. POPM = 3, Rating = 2)

I don't understand why the decision was made to do away with writing TXXX "Rating" tags in foobar. In the Advanced section, there should be the option of writing TXXX, POPM, or (preferably) both.
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Emerelle
post Sep 27 2012, 11:11
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+1 for the suggestion to make TXXX rating tags an option. I hate the fact I cannot see my ratings anywhere else than foobar now.
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shakey_snake
post Sep 27 2012, 13:50
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QUOTE (Emerelle @ Sep 27 2012, 06:11) *
+1 for the suggestion to make TXXX rating tags an option. I hate the fact I cannot see my ratings anywhere else than foobar now.
What other software do you use that you are having issues with?

Apparently not WMP?

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elevatorladylevitateme
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Emerelle
post Sep 27 2012, 15:25
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Exactly, not wmp. Any other software I tried so far, uncluding windows explorer, does not show my new ratings.
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Defrance
post Sep 27 2012, 20:34
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Other than a few bytes of space per file, what is the negative effect of having foobar2000 write both POPM and TXXX frames?
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trelain
post Oct 8 2012, 04:33
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QUOTE (Defrance @ Sep 27 2012, 14:34) *
Other than a few bytes of space per file, what is the negative effect of having foobar2000 write both POPM and TXXX frames?


What I am seeing with the new feature is that choosing "RATING" from Masstagger is setting a POPM WMP tag and not a TXXX tag at all, even though there is a separate "RATING WMP" option in Masstagger. If I wanted a WMP POPM frame for a rating, I would choose "RATING WMP" and not "RATING". Choosing "RATING" instead as an available alternative obviously means I DON"T want a POPM WMP Rating tag, and am happy with the user TXXX "RATING" tag from a "RATING" option. I believe MP3Tag expects the user to specify "RATING WMP" to get a POPM WMP tag, why would FB2K do it differently? What if someone else wants an assumed Media Monkey rating tag from "RATING"?
Also if FB2K writes both TXXX and POPM from "RATING", but MP3Tag continues to write only the specified one, this will create inconsistent behavior. I know that MP3Tag and FB2K are not officially supposed to tag the same way, but over time they have been steering their ships more in the same direction, which is nice.

If the new "assuming" behavior must remain, then I would also like to be able to toggle this as a config option.
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trelain
post Oct 8 2012, 20:35
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Couple of corrections after more research. On a fresh install there is only RATING as the default in the Masstagger dropdown to Set a Value, and under v1.1.14a if I try to add a "RATING WMP" entry, it creates a TXXX frame of "RATING WMP" - not very useful. And according to MP3Tag's tag mapping page, RATING MM for Media Monkey also uses POPM for its file Rating tag, same as WMP. So before v1.1.15 there was NO way to create a POPM Rating in FB2K?
That said, a config option to toggle mapping to TXXX or POPM would be ideal for folks like me who prefer a generically-named user tag for Rating that won't get overlaid by any over-zealous software copying its database Rating to POPM.

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shakey_snake
post Oct 8 2012, 22:47
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QUOTE (trelain @ Oct 8 2012, 15:35) *
Couple of corrections after more research. On a fresh install there is only RATING as the default in the Masstagger dropdown to Set a Value, and under v1.1.14a if I try to add a "RATING WMP" entry, it creates a TXXX frame of "RATING WMP" - not very useful.
Those values shown in masstagger are the default standard fields (Prefs->Advanced->Display->Properties dialog->Standard fields) + other field values you've used in your previous masstagger scripts. Why you used a "not very useful" tag previously is anyone's guess. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (trelain @ Oct 8 2012, 15:35) *
And according to MP3Tag's tag mapping page, RATING MM for Media Monkey also uses POPM for its file Rating tag, same as WMP.
To clarify your statement for other readers: "RATING MM" is what mp3tag calls how it is that Windows Media Player, Media Monkey and now foobar2000 all use the POPM id3 frame for rating.

QUOTE (trelain @ Oct 8 2012, 15:35) *
So before v1.1.15 there was NO way to create a POPM Rating in FB2K?
Correct, that's why this is an improvement.

QUOTE (trelain @ Oct 8 2012, 15:35) *
That said, a config option to toggle mapping to TXXX or POPM would be ideal for folks like me who prefer a generically-named user tag for Rating that won't get overlaid by any over-zealous software copying its database Rating to POPM.
People who are so paranoid about other "overzealous software" can just use id3v2.4 and they get their wishes and it won't be interopertable with anything else. Hell if you just want a TXXX:RATING tag in id3v2.3 that isn't interoperable with anything just store your tags with any string value that isn't "1", "2", "3", "4" or "5".

-----

Honestly, this whole thread has so far been a complete overreaction to a very minor change. The mass of users would never notice this, except for "hey my ratings work now!". It's an improvement for them because they need their tags compatible with the most popular software, because it should "just work" for them. And the knowledgeable users don't care because they are already using foo_playcount because they realize storing user-specific data in tags is folly. You have to be right in that uncanny valley of middleground "power user" for this to somehow be a problem for you.

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Sandrine
post Oct 19 2012, 14:26
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I am not sure I understand all the implications of the change. Here's what my research has uncovered so far:

TXXX seems to be a freeform text field, whereas the "Popularimeter" tag (POPM) stores hex rating values from 1-255, in addition to a bunch of other stuff (cf. http://id3.org/id3v2.3.0/ Section 4.18). Obviously, the POPM tag can be used in a variety of ways, the so-called WM POPM tag being one of them (without knowing what it does exactly).

So the caveat seems to be that different software expects different formats of the rating tag and foobar2000 has chosen the way to make it compatible with Windows Vista and higher. For the everyday foobar2000 user who stores his tag in an audio file there will be no apparent difference.

Did I get this right? Are there other points to consider when chosing the tag type from TXXX or POPM?


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BenB
post Oct 20 2012, 18:20
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foobar 1.1.16 beta 1 has been released and the following is listed within the changelog:

ID3v2 tagging compatibility improvements:
Option to write “rating” as TXXX for the few people who want it.


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