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Topic: what to use for audio around 20 kbps? (Read 10106 times) previous topic - next topic
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what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

i have been searching for this for quite some time now. even tried several encoders myself, but i am very interested in you opinions. i would like to use audio clips for a website. because of the ammount of clips and possible traffic the clips will cause i will be limited to very low bitrate, around 20 kbps (maybe just a bit more). since it will just be clips to get an idea about the track mono should not be any problem (i think?).

so far i have tried:
- mp3, sounded very poor at bitrates around 20 kbps
- realmedia, sounded best by far, but i my opinion the realone player is just plain evil.
- ogg, liked it, but had the idea i needed around 50 kbps to get the quality of the 20 kbps realmedia
- asf/wmv, better then i thought, but personally i would prefer a non-os specific media

has any of you been trying the same thing? if you can you recommend any encoders/settings?

thanks in advance.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #1 –
have you tried mp3PRO MONO?

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #2 –
Play around a bit with various Ogg sampling rates and quality levels.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #3 –
first of all thanks for the quick reply

hmm.. mp3PRO.. haven't tried that one yet. need to read a bit about that one as well. and i'll give the ogg another go, including several switches.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #4 –
A few months back I was faced with the same problem for my own web site.  My requirements were identical to yours.  The current RealAudio encoder has a 'sweet spot' at 20k mono.  I tried every encoder I could lay hands on.  Nothing came even close to the sound quality.  Considering that, and the fact that Real is ubiquitous, my decision was made.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #5 –
Quote
The current RealAudio encoder has a 'sweet spot' at 20k mono.


"Current?" Are you talking about Helix Producer basic (or plus) 9.x?


Thanks


urak

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #6 –
Quote
Quote
The current RealAudio encoder has a 'sweet spot' at 20k mono.


"Current?" Are you talking about Helix Producer basic (or plus) 9.x?


Thanks


urak

Maybe the old Real Producer basic v8.51


bye, dB

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #7 –
are there any big differences between 8.51 and 9.0 then?

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #8 –
Hi,

I'm quite friendly with the RealNetworks developers and as far as they could gather, there was no enhancements with the 20kbps audio codec between RealProducer 8 and Helix Producer 9. Most quality enhancements were brought to the video codec, if I remember correctly.

Ruairi
rc55.com - nothing going on

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #9 –
well.. i have to admit that at 20 kbps the realmedia codec wins, but it's the player (realone) which i'm not too happy with :-/

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #10 –
with ogg and '-q-1 --downmix --resample 16000' i got around 18 kbit/s (mono), if there is better line, pls let me know.
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #11 –
definitely gonna try that one, thanks!

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #12 –
Quote
i would like to use audio clips for a website. because of the ammount of clips and possible traffic the clips will cause i will be limited to very low bitrate, around 20 kbps (maybe just a bit more). since it will just be clips to get an idea about the track mono should not be any problem (i think?).

Do you plan to stream these files, i.e. constantly sending them out like a radio station, or rather offer to simply download them? This is important, because you would have to deal with the streaming capabilities of the different formats then.

Quote
so far i have tried:
- mp3, sounded very poor at bitrates around 20 kbps
- realmedia, sounded best by far, but i my opinion the realone player is just plain evil.
- ogg, liked it, but had the idea i needed around 50 kbps to get the quality of the 20 kbps realmedia
- asf/wmv, better then i thought, but personally i would prefer a non-os specific media


Like it has been already mentioned, mp3PRO is indeed a very good alternative for those very low bitrates. I'm not sure if a full-featured software implementation can deliver ~20 kbps/mono files, but I guess they would sound better than RealAudio. I'm using mp3PRO for my demo tapes right now with the free codec from Thomson at 64 kbps/stereo and I'm happy with the quality/file size ratio. But as you don't consider WMA to be an alternative because of the OS, mp3PRO would fall under the same category, I guess. By the way, WMA9 sounds better for me at 64 kbps than mp3PRO, but I cannot use it on my Win95 system.

Quote
has any of you been trying the same thing? if you can you recommend any encoders/settings?


Of course I have to mention AAC again    which can be decoded on Windows, Apple and even Linux systems. The currently available codecs from PsyTEL and Apple don't do too well at these low bitrates, but I didn't test them against the other formats at 20 kbps/mono, so you may find AAC to be better than MP3 at least if you give it a try.

By the way, in 2003 the new aacPlus will be standardized in MPEG-4 and probably be available from Coding Technologies. This will be the superior audio format for bitrates below 64 kbps/stereo, because it uses the same Spectral Band Replication technology as mp3PRO, and I will certainly switch from mp3PRO to aacPlus then. The Digital Radio Mondiale project (DRM) is already using this codec and will publically start broadcasting next year on narrow-band AM frequencies with mono channel radio stations that deliver near-FM quality at ~22-25 kbps. If you want to know more about that, read this description of aacPlus mentioning an EBU listening test that took place earlier this year (RealAudio also took part in this test):

http://www.ebu.ch/trev_291-dietz.pdf
ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen
BLUEZZ BASTARDZZ - "That lil' ol' ZZ Top cover band from Hamburg..."
INDIGO ROCKS - "Down home rockin' blues. Tasty as strudel."

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #13 –
At 20 kbps  AAC  with PNS might help.

Of course,  AAC+ is much better for ultra low bit rates - I unfortunately can't upload any AAC+ samples at 20 kbps vs. AAC/MP3/anything  - but you can take my word that AAC+  is way way better - offering 16 kHz bandwidth sound with very good pre-echo properties.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #14 –
Quote
well.. i have to admit that at 20 kbps the realmedia codec wins, but it's the player (realone) which i'm not too happy with :-/

If you don't like RealOne (and I can't blame you!), you can download any of Real's old players from Real's archives.

And as a fun way to kill time, you can download every version, and try installing them in chronological order, making note of how much more crap they try to sign you up for with each new release!

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #15 –
Quote
At 20 kbps  AAC  with PNS might help.

Of course,  AAC+ is much better for ultra low bit rates - I unfortunately can't upload any AAC+ samples at 20 kbps vs. AAC/MP3/anything  - but you can take my word that AAC+  is way way better - offering 16 kHz bandwidth sound with very good pre-echo properties.

is there a commericaly available streaming solution with aac+?
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #16 –
ogg's at 2-4Kbps is outstanding.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #17 –
At 20 kbps and below, WMA would be the best even stereo mode is on.  Something bad is that WMA  only supported by "WINDOWS" only. 
I think mp3PRO 24 kbps, 32 kHz, mono is the best, it's supported by all platforms.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #18 –
Quote
is there a commericaly available streaming solution with aac+?

Not yet, because aacPlus itself isn't commercially available at the moment. But as it will be a standardized core part of MPEG-4 soon, there will probably be solutions for streaming audio, too. In fact there is already an initiative from commercial companies called "ISMA (Internet Streaming Media Alliance)" that deals mostly with these questions, also in relation to MPEG-4 (video and audio):

http://ism-alliance.tv/pub/resources/index...resources.shtml

And not to forget MPEG4IP of course, an open source project also developing the streaming capabilities of MPEG-4 and e.g. working together with FAAD:

http://mpeg4ip.sourceforge.net/faq/index.php
ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen
BLUEZZ BASTARDZZ - "That lil' ol' ZZ Top cover band from Hamburg..."
INDIGO ROCKS - "Down home rockin' blues. Tasty as strudel."

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #19 –
Quote
At 20 kbps and below, WMA would be the best even stereo mode is on.   Something bad is that WMA  only supported by "WINDOWS" only.

Are you talking about WMA8 or 9? Did you compare them to other formats at this bitrate? By the way, I think I've read about a XMMS (Linux player) plugin for WMA recently, but I'm not sure about this.

Quote
I think mp3PRO 24 kbps, 32 kHz, mono is the best, it's supported by all platforms.


Hmm, I don't know a solution for Linux yet, neither input plugin nor encoder... Has this changed recently?
ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen
BLUEZZ BASTARDZZ - "That lil' ol' ZZ Top cover band from Hamburg..."
INDIGO ROCKS - "Down home rockin' blues. Tasty as strudel."

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #20 –
Quote
I think I've read about a XMMS (Linux player) plugin for WMA recently, but I'm not sure about this.


You can read WMA with ffmpeg and read ASF/ASX streams with MPlayer.

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #21 –
just wanted to say that at 32kbits 44,1KHz i can't fidn anythin' better than mp3pro
although it uses LC (low complexity stereo) at that kbits, i can't find better solution for smallest size yet quality enough for preview...of course can't w8 for AAC+ it sure gonna be a good replacement for MP3pro
till then i enjoy in mp3pro  ...at 64kbits mp3pro sounds good too but other codecs sounds good at that rate these days too (WMA9/OGG), i found laso nice choice at mp3pro 40kbits non-LC stereo 44,1KHz...not bad at all...

btw, CEP2 (Cool edit Pro 2) has the best MP3pro codec built in (well, Nero from ver 5.5.9.x also upgraded it's mp3pro codec)...

ez

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #22 –
oh..yea...i forgot to ask...regarding mp3pro or AAC...any application that can do stream in that format?
would be luvely to stream mp3pro at 32kbits...dialup users coudl enjoy hi quality then easily

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #23 –
Quote
oh..yea...i forgot to ask...regarding mp3pro or AAC...any application that can do stream in that format?
would be luvely to stream mp3pro at 32kbits...dialup users coudl enjoy hi quality then easily

If you mean real streaming (= radio-like) on the content provider side, I'm not sure if this already exists, i.e. servers and software that enable this opposed to simple file downloads. The forum on http://www.mp3pro.com has a separate board for these questions, and Philips even created a full-featured hardware solution on the user side for this called Streamium MC-i200 (and a new MC-i250, too). I think they offer some kind of mp3PRO streams somewhere, because they want to push this HiFi mini stack with DSL network capabilities of course. Maybe you can find something more specific here:

http://help.streamium.com/
ZZee ya, Hans-Jürgen
BLUEZZ BASTARDZZ - "That lil' ol' ZZ Top cover band from Hamburg..."
INDIGO ROCKS - "Down home rockin' blues. Tasty as strudel."

what to use for audio around 20 kbps?

Reply #24 –
OK - a little test for 20 kbps steaming using Bus Stop feat. Carl Douglas - Kung Fu Fighting.

Original Source
PCM Wave w/ CoolEdit 96 & dMC : kungfu.wave
44 KHz, 16-bit, stereo, 29 seconds.

QuickTime
QDesign Music w/ QuickTime 6 : kungfu.mov
44 KHz, 16-bit, mono, 20 kbps.

RealAudio
RealAudio G2 28.8 w/ Helix Producer Basic : kungfu.rm
20 kbps - some sort of stereo.

Windows Media Audio
Windows Media Audio 9 w/ dMC : kungfu.wma
22 KHz, 16-bit, mono, 20 kbps.

Ogg Vorbis
Ogg Vorbis 1.0 w/ OggEnc.exe and CoolEdit 96 : kungfu16.ogg
16 KHz, 16-bit, mono, Avg. 19 kbps / Q -1

Ogg Vorbis
Ogg Vorbis 1.0 w/ OggEnc.exe and CoolEdit 96 : kungfu22.ogg
22 KHz, 16-bit, mono, Avg. 23 kbps. Q -1

It's hard to pick a winner.
I think QDesign has the best and clearest treble, but completely lacks bass.
Overall soundquality - I think the 23 kbps Ogg Vorbis sample is comparable with RealAudio's G2 20 kbps.
So, being the Ogg-lover I am, I would go with Ogg Vorbis 1.0 22 KHz Q -1 ...
Well, actually I wouldn't go at all. I mean, 20 kbps....... 
Triple the bitrate and make some OGG's, yeah