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"The donation button has been removed ...", foobar2000.org
Squeller
post Jan 1 2010, 12:54
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Happy new year! Oh, suffering from a headache. Was back home at 5am biggrin.gif

QUOTE
The donation button has been removed due to PayPal being thieves.

-v please

This post has been edited by Squeller: Jan 1 2010, 12:55
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Xezzy
post Jan 1 2010, 15:48
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I've got every symptom except headache biggrin.gif Happy new year everyone.

And whats the story with paypal? Maybe there is some alternative...
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kyrio
post Jan 1 2010, 17:14
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Really? No one saw this coming? No one here goes to 4chan?

PayPal is known to close accounts and steal all the money, especially after the value of the account gets higher. It's been common knowledge for many years now. They are going to "donate" your money to their charity and write it off on taxes on top of that, if you complain. If you don't complain they will just pocket it.

I really don't see how PayPal or eBay are still up considering everything they've done over the years and the amount of sites that exists to get the word out.
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Fandango
post Jan 1 2010, 18:25
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I didn't know about this, although I've read stories about contacting someone at PayPal in person is impossible, which makes resolving issues very hard or impossible.

I put Paypal into the same category like Last.fm, Myspace, Google*, Facebook and so on... unbelievable popular services with unbelievable dangerous terms of agreement. They don't treat you like customers, but like sources of information. Stay away!
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Takaji
post Jan 1 2010, 20:44
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What's wrong with last.fm?

It really is a shame about the Paypal thing. Perhaps there's an alternative service that can be used that we can still donate to.
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Shemuel
post Jan 1 2010, 21:16
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It's called sending your credit card details to Peter Pawloski.
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Zarggg
post Jan 1 2010, 23:26
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4chan is not a reliable source for news. Ever.

QUOTE
The donation button has been removed due to PayPal being thieves.

You mean the percentage of transactions they tell you they charge as a fee? It's in the terms you agree to.
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Yirkha
post Jan 1 2010, 23:44
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PayPal decided that Peter was a nonprofit organization and wanted his operation details, tax deduction papers and such. An explanation email didn't change anything and they suspended his account. People could still donate but he cannot get his money out.


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Full-quoting makes you scroll past the same junk over and over.
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Zarggg
post Jan 2 2010, 02:05
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Ouch. Yeah, that's a different story all together. sad.gif
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twcinnh
post Jan 2 2010, 02:50
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QUOTE (Fandango @ Jan 1 2010, 13:25) *
I didn't know about this, although I've read stories about contacting someone at PayPal in person is impossible, which makes resolving issues very hard or impossible.

I put Paypal into the same category like Last.fm, Myspace, Google*, Facebook and so on... unbelievable popular services with unbelievable dangerous terms of agreement. They don't treat you like customers, but like sources of information. Stay away!


I've had problems getting through to a human at PayPal. As a result of numerous attempts resolving issues I strongly resist using them, and am unhappy at sites that 'only' use PayPal. Don't know if there are any alternatives, but I just don't like PayPal and their way of doing business.

So, that's at least one who confirms the difficulty reaching a human and resolving issues.

Regards,

Tom C


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Robertina
post Jan 2 2010, 03:37
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I am paying tribute to Peter for having the courage to call a spade a spade ("PayPal being thieves").

It does happen that this company blocks your money if you do not agree to send them copies of your incoming invoices for articles you sold using their service - which would mean to inform a company, which has nothing to do with your business besides the mode of payment, about your trading partners, the intensity of your partnership with them, your gross yield and so on.

PayPal acts as a kind of bank but could anybody imagine another bank behaving this way? What do they think who they are?

Unfortunately this situation I am knowing from since years kept me from donating money in many cases.
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shakey_snake
post Jan 2 2010, 03:42
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Sometimes I think it would be safer to route my money through a deposed Nigerian prince than paypal.


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freetochoose
post Jan 2 2010, 11:58
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I will never deal with PayPal again!!!!!!!!!!!

ftc
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foosion
post Jan 2 2010, 15:37
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QUOTE (Robertina @ Jan 2 2010, 03:37) *
PayPal acts as a kind of bank but could anybody imagine another bank behaving this way? What do they think who they are?
PayPal legally is a bank in Europe since 2007 when they obtained a bank license in Luxembourg. I have no idea how much their behaviour is influenced by legal regulations (regarding prevention of tax evation or money laundering) and how much is just part of their way of doing business (though I do know someone I could ask regarding regulations).


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Peter
post Jan 2 2010, 16:36
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The donation experiment was interesting and the initial response was really great.

However, after the first week, donation rates dropped to a level that would barely cover server bills. I do not have the luxury of knowing how this would have turned out in long run or how the rates would have changed with different site layout making the "donate" button harder to miss. I might try this again at some point later, if I find some reasonable alternative to PayPal.

It is clear that PayPal will suspend people's accounts without any legit reason given. I'm aware of multiple other people using PayPal in the exactly same manner as I did - including certain members of this forum, I won't point fingers at them or else they might get in trouble too. I responded to PayPal clarifying the situation as soon as I got their "warning letter", but there has been no further response from them at all. Sure I could try fighting them (emails, phone, whatever) to restore normal status of the account, but it sounds like more trouble than it's worth; I started transferring everything out on regular basis since the first signs of trouble so not much has been lost.

I would like to mention that the mildly annoying ads on our site easily cover foobar2000.org/hydrogenaudio.org server costs. I just wanted to let people who find my software to be particularly useful express their gratitude - this is how in my personal opinion purchasing of intellectual property should work: you decide whether, when and how much you pay.

Removal of the donation option will not in any way interfere with foobar2000 development.


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Robertina
post Jan 2 2010, 17:31
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QUOTE (foosion @ Jan 2 2010, 03:37) *
PayPal legally is a bank in Europe since 2007 when they obtained a bank license in Luxembourg. I have no idea how much their behaviour is influenced by legal regulations (regarding prevention of tax evation or money laundering) and how much is just part of their way of doing business.

In spite of Peter's final remark I would like to answer:

As a bank PayPal surely has to fulfill certain legal regulations but exactly that is the crucial point in my eyes: no European bank is allowed to freeze your account off its own bat, based only on its own speculation. No bank is allowed to keep your money. If this condition is a part of its general terms and conditions it is a gagging contract.

If a bank suspects one of its customers to be a criminal it has to inform the police and if the police's investigation confirms that suspicion a prosecutor or judges may block that account. But even so it is not the bank which gets your money. PayPal give a damn about the independency of executive, legislative and judicial powers: first they speculate, then they investigate by requesting sensitive documents (read what Yirkha said above), then they pronounce a judgement. That way they ruined a lot of eBay sellers.

I see in your member's profile that you are a German. So I venture to bring to your attention episode 29 of the German Computer Club 2 Podcast.

The passage in question in the mp3 file starts at 22'40 min.
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kyrio
post Jan 2 2010, 20:31
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QUOTE (Zarggg @ Jan 1 2010, 23:26) *
4chan is not a reliable source for news. Ever.

QUOTE
The donation button has been removed due to PayPal being thieves.

You mean the percentage of transactions they tell you they charge as a fee? It's in the terms you agree to.



Zarggg, you shouldn't make stupid statements about things you know nothing of.

4chan is a classic case where THOUSANDS of dollars, not just a few dollars, was stolen. PayPal used the same methods used in this situation to steal that money. I didn't even need to hear more than what was on the front page and I got it right on the nose (as was explained above). This is how they operate and why I stopped using PayPal and eBay 4 or more years ago.
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FormerlyDFox
post Jan 2 2010, 23:36
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PayPal has been pulling this crap for years, I'm surprised they are still in business.

Anyhow I heard about this 'Revolution Money Exchange', here's their site:

https://revolutionmoneyexchange.com/

Anyone know anything about them?

Looks like a pretty decent site and backed by banks...
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AtaqueEG
post Jan 3 2010, 04:33
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Damn. I only gave 5 bucks a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to donate more, but that is all I had at the moment on my PayPal account. I really wanted to donate much more, since I have been using foobar2000 since year one.

Now I feel super guilty and cheap. sad.gif

I hope Peter gives us another alternative. Now it just makes me remember an old Rod Stewart song that says: "never wait or hesitate, you may never get another chance".

Happy new year to all.

This post has been edited by AtaqueEG: Jan 3 2010, 04:35


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Axon
post Jan 3 2010, 05:48
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I mentioned this story to my wife and - surprisingly - she quite forcefully blew it off as hot air. She's dealt very heavily with Paypal's support dept over the last few months, in the course of her work with a nonprofit, and not only did she find them very pleasant to deal with, she was able to deal with a regional support manager directly to answer the question as to whether or not PayPal requires tax return information from nonprofits. (The answer, fwiw, is no.)

Paypal nonprofit accounts require 503c status, and they used to not ask for verification on this fact, but now they do. From what I understand presently - and IANAL, nor an accountant or a CPA, and am not that great at taxes - if the account was configured as a nonprofit, and is not owned by a 503c, then what PayPal has done is no different than what any other bank in the US would do.

... There is some organization behind foobar2000, right?

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twcinnh
post Jan 3 2010, 06:20
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QUOTE (Axon @ Jan 3 2010, 00:48) *
I mentioned this story to my wife and - surprisingly - she quite forcefully blew it off as hot air. She's dealt very heavily with Paypal's support dept over the last few months, in the course of her work with a nonprofit, and not only did she find them very pleasant to deal with, she was able to deal with a regional support manager directly to answer the question as to whether or not PayPal requires tax return information from nonprofits. (The answer, fwiw, is no.)

Paypal nonprofit accounts require 503c status, and they used to not ask for verification on this fact, but now they do. From what I understand presently - and IANAL, nor an accountant or a CPA, and am not that great at taxes - if the account was configured as a nonprofit, and is not owned by a 503c, then what PayPal has done is no different than what any other bank in the US would do.

... There is some organization behind foobar2000, right?


All I can say is I don't trust PayPal from my dealings with them. They are arrogant and make no attempt to read emails. It seems if you don't fit into one of their problems, they don't want to hear, and they will not respond to any other queries. Just do a google search on paypal problems: Results 1 - 10 of about 62,800,000 for paypal problems. (0.31 seconds)

I'm not alone.

Tom C


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Alexander Ostuni
post Jan 3 2010, 08:02
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Do a google search for pigs fly:
Results 1-10 out of 14.900.000 in 0.32 sec......
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Robertina
post Jan 3 2010, 08:32
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QUOTE (Axon @ Jan 2 2010, 17:48) *
I mentioned this story to my wife and - surprisingly - she quite forcefully blew it off as hot air. She's dealt very heavily with Paypal's support dept over the last few months, in the course of her work with a nonprofit, and not only did she find them very pleasant to deal with, she was able to deal with a regional support manager directly to answer the question as to whether or not PayPal requires tax return information from nonprofits. (The answer, fwiw, is no.)

So I assume that Peter has the wrong wife merely?

Couldn't your wife sort the things out for him (and maybe some others)?

headbang.gif
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Peter
post Jan 3 2010, 11:24
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Let me clarify:
I'm not interested in using PayPal's services again, regardless of whether the current situation could be somehow sorted out or not.


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Robertina
post Jan 3 2010, 13:21
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 The incisive tone of my post apparently was not clear enough, you misunderstood me. My English is too badly.
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