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Topic: Portable Musepack player? (Read 43386 times) previous topic - next topic
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Portable Musepack player?

Reply #25 –
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Zealotry. Great.

Zealotry? Huh!

I am far from being an MPC zealot. Less that 5% of my audio collections are in MPC format (mostly for live performance and gapless support). Rest are in MP3 format due to wide hardware support.

But mockery aside, can you prove my claim otherwise? Can you show me another lossy audio codec that surpasses overall technical superiority of MPC format?

Be it in: 1) psycho-acoustic model 2) inherent support for gapless playback 3) support for excellent tagging format 4) transperancy level at high bitrate (actually as low as 128 kbps, maybe even less). 5) excellent support with matured and well tuned encoder etc.

Show me another lossy audio format that surpasses MPC format in all of these fields. I'll take your word any day. 

Edit: some spellings.
-- Floydian Slip

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #26 –
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1) psycho-acoustic model

That's implementation-dependant, not inherent to the format

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2) inherent support for gapless playback


Vorbis.

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3) support for excellent tagging format


MP4, vorbis.

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4) transperancy level at high bitrate (actually as low as 128 kbps, maybe even less).


Define high.

If it's around 192 kbps: Ogg, AAC and Lame (most of the times).

And no, it's not transparent at 128kbps. Check the test.

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5) excellent support


I would consider MPC support very far from excellent comparing to MP3 and WMA. Even VQF had more portable support than MPC.

And if you mean developer's support to the end user: heh

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with matured and well tuned encoder etc.


At high bitrates: right.

At the whole bitrate range, at multichannel: no.

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #27 –
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That's implementation-dependant, not inherent to the format

Right! But is there any other format that implemented better psy model?

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Define high.

128kbps or higher. Which is a sweetspot that most H/W manufacturers seem to brag about.

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If it's around 192 kbps: Ogg, AAC and Lame (most of the times).

No, it isn't at 192 kbps. It is where encoder meets transparency level. Heck, MPC surpasses any other format for it's better sound quality at any comparable bitrate from 128kbps or above.

Again, none of these (Ogg, AAC, LAME) better than MPC even at this bitrate. MPC will, most likely, outperform all of these at this bitrate.

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And no, it's not transparent at 128kbps. Check the test.

Sorry, I mean't to say better quality than others. Obviously no format is transparent at 128kbps level.

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I would consider MPC support very far from excellent comparing to MP3 and WMA. Even VQF had more portable support than MPC.


I didn't mean H/W support. I said excellent, matured and well tuned "encoder" support.

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At the whole bitrate range: no.


Heh, no single lossy format is better at whole bitrange.

Anyways, while you have shown that some format may come close to technical excellency of MPC, none in general surpasses it. Not to mention that they suck at other aspects of the features.

So, my claim still stands, based on overall performance and technical superiority - it is still "The world's best lossy audio format".

Edit: spellings, some more comments.
-- Floydian Slip

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #28 –
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Such company must offer some kind of support.

Even still. People should know what "audio/music format" means. Or if they don't they won't bother with it, and even if, they can and will use google instead.

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That's implementation-dependant, not inherent to the format

That's not important.

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If it's around 192 kbps: Ogg, AAC and Lame (most of the times).

Yeah, most of the time. Mpc's better.

But anyway, this wasn't about mpc vs. other formats - I'm sure there's enough topics about that already. The question was about if there is a portable player for mpc, and the answer is clear enough: yes there is. It may only be in China and it may lack some memory, but I'd see it as a start. And again, the more people see it that way, the good way, the bigger the chances of things turning out well, so heads up .

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #29 –
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So, my claim still stands, based on overall performance and technical superiority - it is still "The world's best lossy audio format".

I think that even is is correct, it won't be that way for much longer.

There is a lot going on in AAC/MP4 and pretty much nothing on MPC.

I think that, by this time next year, this claim is going to be innacurate.

And that also means: no MPC support, ever.

Somebody here said: "maybe in 5 years".

Five years? In five years we will be using lossless (if ripping music is still possible in five years  )
I'm the one in the picture, sitting on a giant cabbage in Mexico, circa 1978.
Reseñas de Rock en Español: www.estadogeneral.com

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #30 –
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Heck, MPC surpasses any other format for it's better sound quality at any comparable bitrate from 128kbps or above.

Again, none of these (Ogg, AAC, LAME) better than MPC even at this bitrate. MPC will, most likely, outperform all of these at this bitrate.

Good lord. I can't believe people insist in reading my test results the wrong way.

First: There was a TIE at the first place. The security margin is there for a reason, in case you didn't notice.

Second: If you want to nitpick, then AAC won. Because AAC is at 129kbps (the 1kbps more is MP4 overhead) and MPC is at 146kbps.

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Sorry, I mean't to say better quality than others.


It would be wrong neverthless.

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I didn't mean H/W support. I said excellent, matured and well tuned "encoder" support.


Lame is excellent and well tuned considering MP3's limitations. So that argument holds no ground.

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Heh, no single lossy format is better at whole bitrange.


According to what has already been tested, MPEG4 AAC.

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So, my claim still stands, based on overall performance and technical superiority - it is still "The world's best lossy audio format".


OK, so let me start pointing out MPC's flaws:
-Bad at low bitrates
-No multichannel
-Seeking is imperfect
-Not streamable
-Can't be cut/edited
-Lack of support (no playback in Mac, out-of-the-box support only in Foobar, no hardware support aside some never-seen player in China)
-No specs available
-No support for high sampling rates.

And so on.

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #31 –
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That's implementation-dependant, not inherent to the format

That's not important.

God damn, you are brilliant!

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The question was about if there is a portable player for mpc, and the answer is clear enough: yes there is.


Have you actually played with it to check if it really plays MPC? Faultlessly?

All we have so far is what the developer told us. Not even the player sellers mention MPC playback.

You insist on saying it makes no sense that the marketer didn't mention MPC support because noone in china cares about MPC - it's just because of patents.

So OK, let's twist the game: I agree it makes no sense. Then maybe playback support isn't really there?

After all - heh - what makes even less sense is a chinese company caring about western patents.

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but I'd see it as a start. And again, the more people see it that way, the good way, the bigger the chances of things turning out well, so heads up .


That's why I said I'd rather be realist than live out of illusions.

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #32 –
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God damn, you are brilliant!

Yes, I know.

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Have you actually played with it to check if it really plays MPC? Faultlessly?

No I haven't, but I believe him . Anyway, some Chinese HA-user could well test it.

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All we have so far is what the developer told us. Not even the player sellers mention MPC playback.

Yeah, but why they don't is one disputable point we've been debating about. I wouldn't take that as a serious argument at this point.

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So OK, let's twist the game: I agree it makes no sense. Then maybe playback support isn't really there?

Why would the developer say it's there if it isn't? That makes even less sense. I don't think he wants to be known as a liar.

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After all - heh - what makes even less sense is a chinese company caring about western patents.

They may well play it safe. It's a small world these days after all.

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That's why I said I'd rather be realist than live out of illusions.

What illusions? And who's living out of them here? I don't quite see what you mean, but I'm sure you'll say anything to dishearten anyone believing in mpc.

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #33 –
This did turn out to be an interesting thread 

Hmm well...China, please export it soon to US so that I can lay my hands on it  Nevertheless portable players are one area where brand name does matter. So in the perfect world there would be more options than one good ol' company in some remote area of China making the 'world's only portable MPC player'.

rjamorim, you say that AAC won over MPC...whats the support for AAC in portable players available today? It makes sense to switch to a 'present' format (AAC) in which there are developments going on rather than sticking to an equally good but dormant format (MPC). Well now I have to get into knowing AAC encoders, decoders, encode/decode times etc...Well now I have lots to do 

BTW some links on portable AAC players, if any would help!

Thanks.
There are only 10 types of people on this earth - those who know binary and those who don't.

Dell Inspiron 5100
P4 2.4 533 FSB,
512 MB / 40 GB,
Windows XP Home

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #35 –
Roberto, as I said in my previous post, while every format is more or less good or equal at certain feature none of them overall surpasses MPC. Especially in most important aspects like better psy-model, transparency level at comparable bitrate, gapless playback support, better tag support etc.

But anyways, we are rathar getting very off topic here. Question was whether there is any portable player that playback MPC. The answer is, yes.
-- Floydian Slip

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #36 –
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This did turn out to be an interesting thread 

It turned out a mess actually :B

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rjamorim, you say that AAC won over MPC...whats the support for AAC in portable players available today?


iPod
Nokia Cell Phones
n-Gage
Philips Expanium
Also, rumour has it that some iRiver players are going to support AAC.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/u...special_9.shtml

BTW some links on portable AAC players, if any would help!

http://www.n-gage.com/
http://www.apple.com/ipod/
http://www.expanium.philips.com/

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #37 –
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Also, rumour has it that some iRiver players are going to support AAC.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/u...special_9.shtml

And after they worked so hard at supporting Ogg Vorbis? 

I don't know how much stock I'd put in that rumor, since that was dated February and didn't mention the Vorbis support that we're seeing now.  I suspect the internal rumor was that a codec better than mp3 was going to be supported (that wasn't also WMA).

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #38 –
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And after they worked so hard at supporting Ogg Vorbis? 

Well, they don't need to work had to support AAC, there are decently optimized libraries readily available.

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I don't know how much stock I'd put in that rumor, since that was dated February and didn't mention the Vorbis support that we're seeing now.  I suspect the internal rumor was that a codec better than mp3 was going to be supported (that wasn't also WMA).


Well, that is still to be seen.

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #39 –
As mentioned already, that iRiver link is rather outdated and inaccurate since it dates back to February 2003. The fact is that none of the iRiver players mentioned there support AAC, with the exception of the iDP-100 which was discontinued after the failure of DataPlay. Even if the media for the iDP-100 was still readily available, you wouldn't be too happy about having to convert your audio files into any of the proprietary CKMP3 / CKWMA / CKAAC formats required by the player. iRiver has made no official announcements regarding support for newer formats, and quite frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.

I've had my disagreements with rjamorim in the past, but let's face it, having one relatively unknown MPC player in China is little reason to be optimistic for future hardware support. Has anyone on these forums, other than the developer, actually tried this player out first-hand?

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #40 –
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I've had my disagreements with rjamorim in the past

Who hasn't?

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #42 –
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And after they worked so hard at supporting Ogg Vorbis? 

Oh, you can pretty much bet on iRiver having AAC/MP4 support.

This is the format that every hardware unit will support in the next couple of years.

I think with the advent and success of something like iTunes it is fairly clear which format will follow MP3 as the leading one.
I'm the one in the picture, sitting on a giant cabbage in Mexico, circa 1978.
Reseñas de Rock en Español: www.estadogeneral.com

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #43 –
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Who hasn't?

I haven't 
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #44 –
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I haven't 

Let's start then!

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #45 –
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iPod
Nokia Cell Phones
n-Gage
Philips Expanium
Also, rumour has it that some iRiver players are going to support AAC.

The newer Expaniums don't support AAC right? With newer I mean those devices which actually fit in a pocket like the HD based player or 431. Or are there some inofficial firmware for them which can play AAC?

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #46 –
I, too, would like what Pike84 is smoking.
Everything I've learned about space, I've learned from psytrance.

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #47 –
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Anyway, some Chinese HA-user could well test it.

Is there such a thing? Or does the People's Republic official proxy server block HA? It would be great if someone could actually purchase this item and report back.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #48 –
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Anyway, some Chinese HA-user could well test it.

Is there such a thing? Or does the People's Republic official proxy server block HA? It would be great if someone could actually purchase this item and report back.

And would you pay for it?

Portable Musepack player?

Reply #49 –
Hell no.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650