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Topic: What does Copy OK really mean? (Read 4564 times) previous topic - next topic
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What does Copy OK really mean?

I thought I knew the answer, but I guess I don't.

"Copy OK" in an EAC or EAC-style log (such as generated by CUERipper) ... what does it really mean?

For each track ripped from a badly scratched CD, I get Copy OK even when there were suspicious sectors with audible errors.

What exactly is OK about that? What else would it possibly say?

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #1 –
I don't believe I've ever seen an original, unadulterated EAC log that said "Copy OK" for a track or range with a suspicious position or a timing problem (if ripped in burst mode).

If the rips were done with EAC I'd like to see some logs.  Seeing that I trust you aren't checking downloads, I won't also be stipulating that they only be created by you, personally.

I can't comment on CUERipper logs, except to question why they are even being considered.  Is it correct to say they are basically designed to look exactly like EAC logs?  If so, to what end and why would it be expected that they behave in exactly the same fashion with respect to the topic at hand?

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #2 –
'Copy OK' doesn't mean anything in CUERipper's EAC-style log. CUERipper does not track all the same data that EAC does so, as suggested, some text shown is just part of a template designed to appear like a normal EAC log.
korth

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #3 –
When searching for info, I thought I had found an example of an EAC log that showed "Copy OK" on a track with errors, but as I look at it again now, I see that I misread it; it did actually say "Copy finished" on that one.

Quote from: greynol on
I can't comment on CUERipper logs, except to question why they are even being considered.  Is it correct to say they are basically designed to look exactly like EAC logs?  If so, to what end and why would it be expected that they behave in exactly the same fashion with respect to the topic at hand?

In CUERipper, you have to choose whether you want native log format or EAC-style. The EAC-style logs are indeed designed to mimic EAC logs, hence the name of the option. Same can be said of a couple other popular secure rippers' logs. As for why EAC-style is popular, you'll have to ask the developers.

And yes, this is my own rip I'm asking about. The CUERipper log shows every track had inconsistent reads, yet every track gets "Copy OK".

So, what does Copy OK mean in EAC? I assume, and what I think it should mean, is that there are no "suspicious positions"—i.e., consistent data was obtained for every sector, indicating there were no errors, or any errors were either consistent or "corrected". Does that sound right?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that "Copy OK" would have some kind of meaning in CUERipper even if the goal wasn't to imitate EAC's logs. I'd also expect to see an alternative phrase there under some conditions, whatever those might be. Therefore I am asking the questions: what does Copy OK mean in these rippers? Because clearly it doesn't mean the same thing.

korth's reply suggests I shouldn't assume it means anything.

Code: [Select]
CUERipper v2.1.5 Copyright © 2008-13 Grigory Chudov

EAC extraction logfile from 9. December 2013, 13:02

Digital Underground / Doowutchyalike

Used drive  : PLDS DVD-RW DH16ABSH   Adapter: 1  ID: 0

Read mode               : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : Yes
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction                      : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks   : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations       : Yes
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling                                : Appended to previous track

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format      : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

     Track |   Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector 
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  |  0:00.32 |  4:48.30 |        32    |    21661   
        2  |  4:48.62 |  4:18.70 |     21662    |    41081   
        3  |  9:07.57 |  8:55.13 |     41082    |    81219   


Track  1

     Filename I:\My Music\Digital Underground\1990 - Doowutchyalike\[01] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Radio Mix).wav

     Pre-gap length  0:00:02.42

     Suspicious position 0:00:38
     Suspicious position 0:00:49 - 0:00:50
     Suspicious position 0:00:57
     Suspicious position 0:00:59 - 0:01:00
     Suspicious position 0:01:10 - 0:01:11
     Suspicious position 0:01:15 - 0:01:17
     Suspicious position 0:01:31 - 0:01:33
     Suspicious position 0:01:35 - 0:01:43
     Suspicious position 0:01:45 - 0:01:47
     Suspicious position 0:01:49
     Suspicious position 0:01:52
     Suspicious position 0:01:56 - 0:02:17
     Suspicious position 0:02:19 - 0:02:21
     Suspicious position 0:02:23 - 0:02:39
     Suspicious position 0:02:41 - 0:02:51
     Suspicious position 0:02:53 - 0:03:09
     Suspicious position 0:03:11 - 0:03:13
     Suspicious position 0:03:20
     Suspicious position 0:03:28 - 0:03:30
     Suspicious position 0:03:32
     Suspicious position 0:03:34 - 0:03:46

     Peak level 99.8 %
     Track quality 59.4 %
     Copy CRC DE328170
     Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 1)  [DC83E569], AccurateRip returned [2D314A1F]
     Copy OK

Track  2

     Filename I:\My Music\Digital Underground\1990 - Doowutchyalike\[02] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Raw_Fusion Mix).wav

     Pre-gap length  0:00:02.26

     Suspicious position 0:02:18
     Suspicious position 0:03:53 - 0:03:56
     Suspicious position 0:03:58
     Suspicious position 0:04:02
     Suspicious position 0:04:04
     Suspicious position 0:04:06
     Suspicious position 0:04:09

     Peak level 95.0 %
     Track quality 97.6 %
     Copy CRC EE88C767
     Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 2)  [FCE39B11], AccurateRip returned [DD845E85]
     Copy OK

Track  3

     Filename I:\My Music\Digital Underground\1990 - Doowutchyalike\[03] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Playhowyalike Mix).wav

     Pre-gap length  0:00:02.68

     Suspicious position 0:02:44
     Suspicious position 0:02:48
     Suspicious position 0:03:00
     Suspicious position 0:03:05
     Suspicious position 0:04:26
     Suspicious position 0:04:30 - 0:04:31
     Suspicious position 0:04:33 - 0:04:45
     Suspicious position 0:04:47 - 0:04:49
     Suspicious position 0:04:54
     Suspicious position 0:04:58
     Suspicious position 0:05:02 - 0:05:04
     Suspicious position 0:05:14 - 0:05:22
     Suspicious position 0:05:27
     Suspicious position 0:05:31
     Suspicious position 0:05:57 - 0:05:58
     Suspicious position 0:06:07 - 0:06:08
     Suspicious position 0:06:25
     Suspicious position 0:06:33
     Suspicious position 0:06:35
     Suspicious position 0:06:39 - 0:06:41
     Suspicious position 0:06:43 - 0:07:32

     Peak level 99.2 %
     Track quality 55.4 %
     Copy CRC 40B9A1B8
     Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 1)  [D275B099], AccurateRip returned [E233BCFE]
     Copy OK


No tracks could be verified as accurate
You may have a different pressing from the one(s) in the database

There were errors

End of status report

Code: [Select]
Exact Audio Copy V1.0 beta 3 from 29. August 2011

EAC extraction logfile from 3. February 2014, 23:48

Digital Underground / Doowutchyalike

Used drive  : PLDS    DVD-RW DH16ABSH   Adapter: 0  ID: 1

Read mode               : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : No
Make use of C2 pointers : Yes

Read offset correction                      : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks   : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations       : Yes
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling                                : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format      : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

     Track |   Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector 
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  |  0:00.32 |  4:48.30 |        32    |    21661   
        2  |  4:48.62 |  4:18.70 |     21662    |    41081   
        3  |  9:07.57 |  8:55.13 |     41082    |    81219   


Track  1

     Filename I:\My Music\Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike\[01] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Radio Mix).wav

     Suspicious position 0:00:49
     Suspicious position 0:01:15 - 0:01:16
     Suspicious position 0:01:30 - 0:01:31
     Suspicious position 0:01:35
     Suspicious position 0:01:37 - 0:01:39
     Suspicious position 0:01:42 - 0:01:43
     Suspicious position 0:01:46
     Suspicious position 0:01:59 - 0:02:00
     Suspicious position 0:02:02
     Suspicious position 0:02:08 - 0:02:10
     Suspicious position 0:02:13
     Suspicious position 0:02:15
     Suspicious position 0:02:23
     Suspicious position 0:02:27 - 0:02:30
     Suspicious position 0:02:35
     Suspicious position 0:02:42 - 0:02:43
     Suspicious position 0:02:45 - 0:02:47
     Suspicious position 0:02:52 - 0:02:53
     Suspicious position 0:02:55
     Suspicious position 0:02:59
     Suspicious position 0:03:05
     Suspicious position 0:03:07 - 0:03:08
     Suspicious position 0:03:11
     Suspicious position 0:03:35
     Suspicious position 0:03:40
     Suspicious position 0:03:43
     Suspicious position 0:03:45
     Suspicious position 0:03:50 - 0:03:51
     Suspicious position 0:03:53 - 0:03:54
     Suspicious position 0:03:57
     Suspicious position 0:04:09
     Suspicious position 0:04:11

     Peak level 96.7 %
     Extraction speed 0.0 X
     Track quality 93.3 %
     Copy CRC 27E0521A
     Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 1)  [67724024], AccurateRip returned [2D314A1F]  (AR v2)
     Copy finished

Track  2

     Filename I:\My Music\Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike\[02] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Raw; Fusion Mix).wav

     Peak level 95.0 %
     Extraction speed 3.2 X
     Track quality 99.2 %
     Copy CRC CF2463C7
     Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 1)  [9BB94512], AccurateRip returned [DD845E85]  (AR v2)
     Copy OK

Track  3

     Filename I:\My Music\Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike\[03] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Playhowyalike Mix).wav

     Suspicious position 0:04:34
     Suspicious position 0:04:37 - 0:04:38
     Suspicious position 0:04:41
     Suspicious position 0:04:45
     Suspicious position 0:04:49
     Suspicious position 0:05:16
     Suspicious position 0:05:19 - 0:05:20
     Suspicious position 0:06:39 - 0:06:40
     Suspicious position 0:06:45 - 0:06:46
     Suspicious position 0:06:48
     Suspicious position 0:06:50 - 0:06:52
     Suspicious position 0:06:55 - 0:06:56
     Suspicious position 0:06:58 - 0:07:01
     Suspicious position 0:07:03 - 0:07:05
     Suspicious position 0:07:07 - 0:07:11
     Suspicious position 0:07:13 - 0:07:23
     Suspicious position 0:07:25 - 0:07:26
     Suspicious position 0:07:28
     Suspicious position 0:07:32
     Suspicious position 0:07:35
     Suspicious position 0:07:39
     Suspicious position 0:07:43 - 0:07:44
     Suspicious position 0:07:46
     Suspicious position 0:07:48 - 0:07:52
     Suspicious position 0:07:55 - 0:07:56
     Suspicious position 0:07:58 - 0:08:11
     Suspicious position 0:08:13 - 0:08:22
     Suspicious position 0:08:24 - 0:08:30
     Suspicious position 0:08:32 - 0:08:34
     Suspicious position 0:08:36 - 0:08:54

     Peak level 98.8 %
     Extraction speed 0.0 X
     Track quality 90.2 %
     Copy CRC 5DD60A9E
     Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 1)  [0F220E92], AccurateRip returned [E233BCFE]  (AR v2)
     Copy finished


No tracks could be verified as accurate

There were errors

End of status report

---- CUETools DB Plugin V2.1.4

[CTDB TOCID: vcF7z6FOffQKsBoxA8vVq_R6zgQ-] disk not present in database
Submit result: vcF7z6FOffQKsBoxA8vVq_R6zgQ- has been uploaded

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #4 –
FWIW, the native CUERipper log doesn't even show suspicious positions after the first track... 

Code: [Select]
CUERipper v2.1.5 Copyright © 2008-13 Grigory Chudov
Extraction logfile from : 02/04/2014 03:43:11
Used drive              : PLDS     - DVD-RW DH16ABSH
Read offset correction  : 6
Read command            : BEh, 12h, BEh, 16 blocks at a time
Secure mode             : 1
Disk length             : 18:02:70
AccurateRip             : ok

TOC of the extracted CD

     Track |   Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector 
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  |  0:00.32 |  4:48.30 |        32    |    21661   
        2  |  4:48.62 |  4:18.70 |     21662    |    41081   
        3  |  9:07.57 |  8:55.13 |     41082    |    81219   

     Track |   Pregap  | Indexes
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  | 00:02:32 |     1
        2  | 00:02:20 |     1
        3  | 00:02:51 |     1

Destination files
    I:\My Music\Digital Underground\1990 - Doowutchyalike\[00] Digital Underground - (HTOA).flac
    I:\My Music\Digital Underground\1990 - Doowutchyalike\[01] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Radio Mix).flac
    I:\My Music\Digital Underground\1990 - Doowutchyalike\[02] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Raw_Fusion Mix).flac
    I:\My Music\Digital Underground\1990 - Doowutchyalike\[03] Digital Underground - Doowutchyalike (Playhowyalike Mix).flac

     Suspicious position 0:00:38
     Suspicious position 0:00:49
     Suspicious position 0:00:51
     Suspicious position 0:00:57 - 0:01:02
     Suspicious position 0:01:10 - 0:01:12
     Suspicious position 0:01:15 - 0:01:18
     Suspicious position 0:01:32 - 0:01:43
     Suspicious position 0:01:45 - 0:01:47
     Suspicious position 0:01:49
     Suspicious position 0:01:52
     Suspicious position 0:01:57 - 0:02:17
     Suspicious position 0:02:19 - 0:02:39
     Suspicious position 0:02:41 - 0:02:51
     Suspicious position 0:02:53 - 0:02:54
     Suspicious position 0:02:56 - 0:03:13
     Suspicious position 0:03:20
     Suspicious position 0:03:28 - 0:03:31
     Suspicious position 0:03:35 - 0:03:36
     Suspicious position 0:03:38 - 0:03:47
     Suspicious position 0:03:49 - 0:03:58
     Suspicious position 0:04:04 - 0:04:11

There were errors

[CTDB TOCID: vcF7z6FOffQKsBoxA8vVq_R6zgQ-] found.
Track | CTDB Status
  1   | (0/1) No match
  2   | (0/1) No match
  3   | (0/1) No match

AccurateRip summary

[AccurateRip ID: 0002327c-00077fda-1f043a03] found.
Track   [  CRC   |   V2   ] Status
 01     [ed325e04|4c36f347] (0+0/1) No match
 02     [9aef49c0|cef909c9] (0+0/2) No match
 03     [ea5d5716|a832811c] (0+0/1) No match

Track Peak [ CRC32  ] [W/O NULL] 
 --   99.8 [E2268E70] [7EA7683B]           
 01   96.7 [2BE404DC] [FF3C4633]           
 02   95.0 [8F1CA7C8] [06C7B5A1]           
 03   99.8 [9E8D7F87] [71AC5180]           

End of status report

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #5 –
If there was an issue that EAC couldn't "fix" then it will say what and where the issue was, and it will say copy finished.

While my questions about mimmickery were largely rhetorical, I think "to what end?" gets to the point. My guess is to satisfy scripts that operate on log information.

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #6 –
I've never had an audible error when EAC says "Copy OK", even if AccurateRip couldn't confirm a bit-perfect rip.  (I've never used CUERipper.)

Quote
What does Copy OK really mean?
With EAC, I think it means there were no uncorrectable errors detected.      But, that doesn't mean there were no errors since the error detection/correction on audio CDs is "weak".

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #7 –
Let me make this clear before we wander into the weeds:
Ignoring the CTDB plugin, EAC only has the ability to correct synchronization issues.  Re-reading in order to cherry-pick consistent data and using an arbitrary threshold to qualify it as passing/failing does not constitute correction.  The only way that EAC has any awareness of uncorrectable errors is through reliable C2 pointers.

In general, EAC's "Copy OK" is no guarantee that the rip was without errors.  In secure mode (w/no C2 pointers, cache audio data is configured correctly for the drive), "Copy OK" is no guarantee that the rip was without consistent errors.  Consistent errors are generally just a small number of samples that are concealed through interpolation, so it is generally unlikely that they will be audible.  I would not rule out  the possibility of some drive that consistently mutes blocks of data containing uncorrectable samples or something similar, in which case these consistent errors could easily be audible.  With C2 pointers or in burst mode, "Copy OK" is no guarantee of anything.

On the flip-side, EAC's "Copy finished" is no guarantee that the rip has errors.

I don't know that I would go so far as to say error detection on audio CDs is weak; correction, sure.

What does Copy OK really mean?

Reply #8 –
In fact, most of the time many, many errors are detected and corrected automatically each time a CD is played. It is only when the errors reach a level at which the drive is unable to correct them that the ripper needs to add an extra layer of error detection.