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24 bit vinyl clips, Examples of 24 bit vinyl and bit-reduced versions
Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 19:03
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Attached are several clips for vinyl rips, each in (24/48) and (16/44.1) -- I have many more but 7 I filled up my attachment space.

I used Izotope's SRC and MBit+ algorithms to do the conversion, I converted sample rate first and then bit rate.

The rips were done using Thorens Turntable, Lyra Delos cartride, Parasound phono pre, Burl B2 ADC, Lynx AES16 card, Pure Vinyl software.

If anyone has better conversion technology than Izotope I would be interested to hear those samples for my own comparison, as a practical matter I would like to have the best possible bit reduced versions in my library in addition to my 24 bit versions.

If anyone is interested in specific notes on what I'm hearing as the differences in my playback system then let me know.

The sources are:

Dire Straits "Romeo And Juliet"
Prefab Sprout "Faron Young"
Yes "Roundabout"
The National "Bloodbuzz Ohio"
Cat Stevens "Father And Son"
Roxy Music "Running Wild"
John Lennon "Mind Games"

Thanks for checking these out.




Attached File(s)
Attached File  Faron_Young__30s___24_48_.wav ( 7.9MB ) Number of downloads: 148
Attached File  Father_And_Son__30s___16_44_.wav ( 5.17MB ) Number of downloads: 89
Attached File  Running_Wild__30s___24_48_.wav ( 8.27MB ) Number of downloads: 71
Attached File  Romeo_And_Juliet__30s___24_48_.wav ( 6.98MB ) Number of downloads: 154
Attached File  Father_And_Son__30s___24_48_.wav ( 8.37MB ) Number of downloads: 89
Attached File  Roundabout__30s___24_48_.wav ( 8.53MB ) Number of downloads: 71
Attached File  Roundabout__30s___16_44_.wav ( 5.27MB ) Number of downloads: 60
Attached File  Bloodbuzz_Ohio__30s___24_48_.wav ( 8.37MB ) Number of downloads: 74
Attached File  Bloodbuzz_Ohio__30s___16_44_.wav ( 5.16MB ) Number of downloads: 60
Attached File  Mind_Games__30s___16_44_.wav ( 5.05MB ) Number of downloads: 57
Attached File  Mind_Games__30s___24_48_.wav ( 8.24MB ) Number of downloads: 76
Attached File  Faron_Young__30s___16_44_.wav ( 4.88MB ) Number of downloads: 76
Attached File  Running_Wild__30s___16_44_.wav ( 5.11MB ) Number of downloads: 74
Attached File  Romeo_And_Juliet__30s___16_44_.wav ( 4.31MB ) Number of downloads: 103
 
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Wombat
post Feb 15 2012, 19:35
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It shouldnīt be of any advantage to use iZotope dither here. It is found being good for having a noiseshape that prefers low-frequency noise + high shape above 15kHz and therefore sounds more comfortable. When dithering down a Vinyl rip there has to be so much noise in that you even most likely need NO dither at all, leave alone having an advanztage with high efficient dither.

Edit: removed quote

This post has been edited by Wombat: Feb 15 2012, 19:36
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Wombat
post Feb 15 2012, 20:44
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I gave this Faron Young sample a try and played it on my main system. So far it didnīt impress me. Sounds like some mediocore recording with not to much detail and even lack of fine highs.
I couldnīt find the 16bit version sounding different by simply switching between the 2 but i didnīt try much there.
Will be interesting what the others have to say.
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pdq
post Feb 15 2012, 21:09
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An interesting experiment for Gretschguy to perform would be to convert the 16/44.1 files back to 24/48 and see how they sound. That could rule out problems with the sound card.
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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 21:43
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QUOTE (pdq @ Feb 15 2012, 21:09) *
An interesting experiment for Gretschguy to perform would be to convert the 16/44.1 files back to 24/48 and see how they sound. That could rule out problems with the sound card.


pdq, that sounds like a really good suggestion -- so you are saying take the 16 bit files and convert them back up to 24 bit and if that once again sounds better to me then this suggests its a bias in how the card DAC is handling 24 as opposed to 16. Seems like a great test. I'm only confused that you mention soundcard, did you mean DAC?
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pdq
post Feb 15 2012, 21:52
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From the website for the DAC, it appears that it does not natively support 44.1 kHz. That means that something else is doing the conversion, and perhaps doing a poor job of it (has happened before).
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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 21:57
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QUOTE (Wombat @ Feb 15 2012, 20:44) *
I gave this Faron Young sample a try and played it on my main system. So far it didnīt impress me. Sounds like some mediocore recording with not to much detail and even lack of fine highs.
I couldnīt find the 16bit version sounding different by simply switching between the 2 but i didnīt try much there.
Will be interesting what the others have to say.


Wombat, thanks for checking it out. I hear plenty of highs on Faron Young, make sure your tone controls are all neutral and no surround processing is set on. You also might want to check out "Romeo and Juliet" if you want to give another one a try.

On Faron Young specifically, take a close listen to the bass line -- do you hear the individual notes of the bass line exactly the same on the two versions. Does one version spell out the bass individual bass notes better? Do you hear all the instruments on the same plane in both versions or does one version have more front to back dimension in which the instruments widen out and take on more definition. Just a couple things to look for on a recording like this one that has a lot of going on at a fast pace. This one measures close to 20dB between LEQ and peak per AudioLeak. You might want to try compressing it down to 12 dB or so if you have compression software and see if that sounds more modern and perhaps to your liking.
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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 22:00
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QUOTE (pdq @ Feb 15 2012, 21:52) *
From the website for the DAC, it appears that it does not natively support 44.1 kHz. That means that something else is doing the conversion, and perhaps doing a poor job of it (has happened before).


pdq, what DAC are you referring to? Burl is my ADC not my DAC.
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greynol
post Feb 15 2012, 22:02
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Let there be no doubt that any audible differences will be due to resampling problems long before they will be due to deficiencies in bit depth. There is absolutely no empirical data indicating that vinyl will suffer any audible degradation when presented in a delivery format that makes use of 16 bits, if not less.


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pdq
post Feb 15 2012, 22:04
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QUOTE (Gretschguy @ Feb 15 2012, 12:11) *
Yes and no -- I've certainly spent a lot of care and money on my vinyl setup -- my Burl ADC alone probably costs more than most folks whole sound systems. But I would say, in my experience, that vinyl quickly exceeds CD for the right material (I listen to much 70s and 80s vinyl) and is not just providing "good reproduction" but rather "stellar reproduction" that I can't seem to get from my CD playback and my 16 / 44.1 playback is done by Burmester which is a pretty good name in the business. Even with my more modest Denon cartridge before upgrading to my Delos, I felt that my vinyl playback exceeded my CD playback when both were compared on my Burmester audio system.

Have I misunderstood your setup?


This post has been edited by pdq: Feb 15 2012, 22:05
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greynol
post Feb 15 2012, 22:09
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QUOTE (Gretschguy @ Feb 15 2012, 12:57) *
Does one version spell out the bass individual bass notes better? Do you hear all the instruments on the same plane in both versions or does one version have more front to back dimension in which the instruments widen out and take on more definition. Just a couple things to look for on a recording like this one that has a lot of going on at a fast pace.

Is it just me or does this sound like the same old placebo-based audiophile subjectivism that upon which this forum deeply frowns?

Let's see some ABX test results before we go traipsing off into pseudo-scientific woo land, m'kay?

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 15 2012, 22:17


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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 22:17
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QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 15 2012, 22:02) *
Let there be no doubt that any audible differences will be due to resampling problems long before they will be due to deficiencies in bit depth. There is absolutely no empirical data indicating that vinyl will suffer any audible degradation when presented in a delivery format that makes use of 16 bits, if not less.


Greynol, the proper test I think is to have the ADC sample at 16 bit / 44.1 and compare it to a 24 bit / 48 kHz sample which would then remove any of the resampling / conversion bias. My Burl only samples in 24 bit so I can't do that test but I think that's probably the best test actually.
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greynol
post Feb 15 2012, 22:21
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It's readily accepted that best practice is to sample at 24 bits, using the same rate that will be used for playback unless there is a problem with the hardware at that rate or subsequent processing (prior to conversion to the desired delivery format) would benefit from sampling at a different rate from that used for playback.

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 15 2012, 23:58


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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 22:28
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QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 15 2012, 22:09) *
QUOTE (Gretschguy @ Feb 15 2012, 12:57) *
Does one version spell out the bass individual bass notes better? Do you hear all the instruments on the same plane in both versions or does one version have more front to back dimension in which the instruments widen out and take on more definition. Just a couple things to look for on a recording like this one that has a lot of going on at a fast pace.

Is it just me or does this sound like the same old placebo-based audiophile subjectivism that upon which this forum deeply frowns?

Let's see some ABX test results before we go traipsing off into pseudo-scientific woo land, m'kay?


Greynol, I apologize, I don't mean to bring the forum down a few notches -- I suggested those as things to listen for -- it could very well be that sampling errors and conversion errors are causing that difference -- it could very well be that my DAC does something different with 16 than 24 bits. I thought it would be helpful to provide some context to what I'm hearing, maybe smart folks can pinpoint it and say "aha, this guy is hearing dithering noise.." or whatever...

I can try to setup some kind of AB test myself, sounds like you won't trust my results -- I use an entirely Burmester sound system not a computer card so I would have to sort out a way to do that. I think I can random shuffle the playback on my system and see how I score that way.

To be clear, you do not want me to reference the specifics of what I'm hearing -- even if I freely admit that what I'm hearing could be due to any number of distortions, bias', conversion problems, etc... You want me to just not express it at all right?

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Wombat
post Feb 15 2012, 22:31
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QUOTE (Gretschguy @ Feb 15 2012, 21:57) *
Wombat, thanks for checking it out. I hear plenty of highs on Faron Young, make sure your tone controls are all neutral and no surround processing is set on. You also might want to check out "Romeo and Juliet" if you want to give another one a try.

On Faron Young specifically, take a close listen to the bass line -- do you hear the individual notes of the bass line exactly the same on the two versions. Does one version spell out the bass individual bass notes better? Do you hear all the instruments on the same plane in both versions or does one version have more front to back dimension in which the instruments widen out and take on more definition. Just a couple things to look for on a recording like this one that has a lot of going on at a fast pace. This one measures close to 20dB between LEQ and peak per AudioLeak. You might want to try compressing it down to 12 dB or so if you have compression software and see if that sounds more modern and perhaps to your liking.

There isnīt much seperation in this recortding at all, i really donīt know what front to back dimension you talk about. This is played back with a Slimdevices Transporter with a build in AK4396 DAC, no tone-control.
It doesnīt matter to me how it measures on peaks. I listened Stevie Ray Vaughanīs - Couldn't Stand The Weather from MFSL, CD layer these days often and after that your sample here sounds mediocore at best, sorry.

This post has been edited by Wombat: Feb 15 2012, 22:31
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greynol
post Feb 15 2012, 22:35
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If you cannot demonstrate that what you're hearing is not based on expectation bias, then you are not free to comment on the differences you appear to perceive, that is correct.

To be honest, I don't see the point in discussing possible hardware problems until placebo effect is ruled out.

Finally, to clarify this forum is not interested in AB tests, especially when ABX tests can be performed. If an AB test single-blind then the results are highly suspect. If an AB test is is sighted (which most seem to be) then it is completely useless.


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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 22:35
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QUOTE (pdq @ Feb 15 2012, 23:04) *
QUOTE (Gretschguy @ Feb 15 2012, 12:11) *
Yes and no -- I've certainly spent a lot of care and money on my vinyl setup -- my Burl ADC alone probably costs more than most folks whole sound systems. But I would say, in my experience, that vinyl quickly exceeds CD for the right material (I listen to much 70s and 80s vinyl) and is not just providing "good reproduction" but rather "stellar reproduction" that I can't seem to get from my CD playback and my 16 / 44.1 playback is done by Burmester which is a pretty good name in the business. Even with my more modest Denon cartridge before upgrading to my Delos, I felt that my vinyl playback exceeded my CD playback when both were compared on my Burmester audio system.

Have I misunderstood your setup?


Burmester DAC yes -- do they not natively support 16 bit / 44.1? This may help explain the difference. I understand that they do. My ADC however only outputs 24 bit so this could be a source of some bias as I must convert to get to 16 bit / 44.1.
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AndyH-ha
post Feb 15 2012, 22:39
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What are you asking for? Do you have a problem to overcome? It takes much too long to download even one such sample over my dial.-up line.

Unless you are doing something strange and unreasonable, or something is defective, there is no difference to be heard between before conversion and after conversion. This has been well established for a long time.
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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 22:40
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QUOTE (Wombat @ Feb 15 2012, 23:31) *
QUOTE (Gretschguy @ Feb 15 2012, 21:57) *
Wombat, thanks for checking it out. I hear plenty of highs on Faron Young, make sure your tone controls are all neutral and no surround processing is set on. You also might want to check out "Romeo and Juliet" if you want to give another one a try.

On Faron Young specifically, take a close listen to the bass line -- do you hear the individual notes of the bass line exactly the same on the two versions. Does one version spell out the bass individual bass notes better? Do you hear all the instruments on the same plane in both versions or does one version have more front to back dimension in which the instruments widen out and take on more definition. Just a couple things to look for on a recording like this one that has a lot of going on at a fast pace. This one measures close to 20dB between LEQ and peak per AudioLeak. You might want to try compressing it down to 12 dB or so if you have compression software and see if that sounds more modern and perhaps to your liking.

There isnīt much seperation in this recortding at all, i really donīt know what front to back dimension you talk about. This is played back with a Slimdevices Transporter with a build in AK4396 DAC, no tone-control.
It doesnīt matter to me how it measures on peaks. I listened Stevie Ray Vaughanīs - Couldn't Stand The Weather from MFSL, CD layer these days often and after that your sample here sounds mediocore at best, sorry.


Thanks Wombat, I appreciate you taking the time to listen.
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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 22:41
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QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 15 2012, 23:35) *
If you cannot demonstrate that what you're hearing is not based on expectation bias, then you are not free to comment on the differences you appear to perceive, that is correct.

To be honest, I don't see the point in discussing possible hardware problems until placebo effect is ruled out.

Finally, to clarify this forum is not interested in AB tests, especially when ABX tests can be performed. If an AB test single-blind then the results are highly suspect. If an AB test is is sighted (which most seem to be) then it is completely useless.


Got it -- I'll see if I can sort out a way to do that.
Thanks
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mixminus1
post Feb 15 2012, 22:55
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@Gretschguy, a couple questions:

1) You said earlier that you were using your Burl to capture at 24/96, but the samples you posted are 24/48. Are these files new captures performed with the Burl running @ 48 kHz, or downsampled from your original 96 kHz captures?

2) Regarding performing an ABX test with your system: What have you been using for playback of your 24-bit files (and related to that, exactly how have you been comparing the "hi-res" and downsampled versions)? The output of the Lynx card to your Burmester DAC? If so, and you're running Windows, the freeware foobar2000 audio player has an ABX plugin that would make performing an ABX test simple, especially as foobar can be set to always output 24-bit audio to your audio interface, regardless of whether the file being played is 16 or 24 bit (16-bit files are just padded with zeros).

Comparing different sample rates could be tricky, though, as although foobar has no problem outputting any sample rate known to man, your DAC will most likely mute while switching rates - or I should say, *hopefully* it mutes, and doesn't pop/click/etc - and depending on how long that mute lasts, it could make ABX'ing difficult.


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greynol
post Feb 15 2012, 23:16
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He could just up-convert to the highest bit depth/sample rate in order to avoid all that. If ABX results are inconclusive (which will be the case in all likelihood, even taking into account the second conversion) then we're pretty much done. If the ABX results indicate a positive identification then we can start honing in on the cause of the difference, beginning with the processing then the hardware before concluding that 16/44.1 is inadequate as a delivery format for digitized vinyl.


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Gretschguy
post Feb 15 2012, 23:27
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QUOTE (mixminus1 @ Feb 15 2012, 22:55) *
@Gretschguy, a couple questions:

1) You said earlier that you were using your Burl to capture at 24/96, but the samples you posted are 24/48. Are these files new captures performed with the Burl running @ 48 kHz, or downsampled from your original 96 kHz captures?

2) Regarding performing an ABX test with your system: What have you been using for playback of your 24-bit files (and related to that, exactly how have you been comparing the "hi-res" and downsampled versions)? The output of the Lynx card to your Burmester DAC? If so, and you're running Windows, the freeware foobar2000 audio player has an ABX plugin that would make performing an ABX test simple, especially as foobar can be set to always output 24-bit audio to your audio interface, regardless of whether the file being played is 16 or 24 bit (16-bit files are just padded with zeros).

Comparing different sample rates could be tricky, though, as although foobar has no problem outputting any sample rate known to man, your DAC will most likely mute while switching rates - or I should say, *hopefully* it mutes, and doesn't pop/click/etc - and depending on how long that mute lasts, it could make ABX'ing difficult.


Mixminus:

(1) I capture at 24/96 and converted directly from there to 16 / 44.1, I also converted down to 24 / 48 and I compared on my Burmester system the 16 / 44/1 and 24 / 48. My Burmester DAC is limited to 48 kHz sample rates. I was going to upload all three samples but there was only 100MB available to me so I just uploaded exactly what I had compared on my system.

(2) My primary listening system is a full Burmester car audio system which includes Burmester DAC conversion, Burmester speakers, and Burmester amplification. I can't attach a soundcard to that system. I can however play back wav files of different sample rates and bit depths with a limit of 24 / 48. According to Burmester the DAC reclocks the wav files, perhaps thats a clue to something going on.

My studio machine uses an older MOTU DAC and is capable for 24 / 96, however, overall that system does not compare with the Burmester system and is not my target listening environment that I've been optimizing towards. I would not trust that DAC for much critical listening given that I experienced a major leap in sound quality when I upgraded the MOTU ACD to Burl last year -- I listen to the Burmester a couple hours each day often at loud volumes so I'm optimizing my vinyl replay to that system -- and I also rely upon the Burmester for my own studio work as I find it provides a great sound. For critical listening tests I listen without the car moving and without engine noise, it's a quiet environment and I play my music loud.

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greynol
post Feb 15 2012, 23:33
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QUOTE (Gretschguy @ Feb 15 2012, 14:27) *
My studio machine uses an older MOTU DAC and is capable for 24 / 96, however, overall that system does not compare with the Burmester system and is not my target listening environment that I've been optimizing towards. I would not trust that DAC for much critical listening given that I experienced a major leap in sound quality when I upgraded the MOTU ACD to Burl last year

Once again, this is not compliant with #8 in our Terms of Service, to which you agreed to follow in order to participate here.

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 15 2012, 23:37
Reason for edit: Added link in the event that our rules have not been read by Gretschguy.


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xnor
post Feb 16 2012, 00:31
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Thanks for the samples. A simple analysis showed that most don't even use over 20 dB dynamic range. There's one sample which uses ~31 dB dynamic range.

As for sample rate conversion I suggest SoX. Dithering shouldn't be audible with those dynamic range numbers unless you use some aggressive noise shaping that adds a lot of HF noise .. which is only audible if you don't have HF hearing loss though.

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