Compare for yourself: Vinyl vs. CD Options

[Pio2001]

Tell me vinyls are dynamic !



Depeche Mode - Kaleid - When World Mix, from Policy of Truth remix Maxi Single French edition, 1990

The percussions are deafening

EDIT : why, oh why do we need "24 bits" in order to "improve dynamics" ?! This 50 db dynamics vinyl has already more dynamics recorded to it than any 96 db CD I can think of (exept of course my "Peer Gynt" by Neeme Jarvi)

[budgie]

Pio2001:

Just your ears got fooled a little bit... Y'know it

But it's truth that maxi-singles, EPs and 45rpm LPs can sound in a very dynamic way because of the "loosy grooves"... I had the first two LPs from Metallica on 45rpm DoLPs and they sounded definitely better than the same Metallica CDs in that time (1989)

This post has been edited by budgie: Apr 7 2003, 10:17

[tacitus10]

Unlike digital, with analogue you can hear well below the noise floor. Appogee, pioneers in dither, ADC & DAC realised this when they first formulated the concept of dither in digital recordings.

Digital just stops (distortion) at the noise floor. Analogue fades naturally, well below hiss or crackle.

This post has been edited by tacitus10: Apr 7 2003, 09:18

[2Bdecided]

Unlike digital, with analogue you can hear well below the noise floor.  Appogee, pioneers in dither, ADC & DAC realised this when they first formulated the concept of dither in digital recordings.

Was that a direct quote from their website? I think it's a bit, er, generous to Apogee. People were using dither in digital sampled systems before I was born! It was used in video in the 1960s. It was used and understood perfectly in audio at least a decade before UV22.

Digital just stops (distortion) at the noise floor.  Analogue fades naturally, well below hiss or crackle.

The two fundamentals of digital audio are the anti-alias filter, and correct dither. Without these, digital is rubbish. With these, it's "perfect" within defined specifications. To say that "digital just stops (distortion) at the noise floor" without dither is rather like saying "LPs sound desperately harsh without correct RIAA equalisation" - of course! With dither, digital goes beyond the noise floor - audibly it goes at least as far as analogue, and measurably it goes down to the 27th bit in the best equipment.


The tragic thing is that there are still some digital devices designed by people who don't fully understand the fundamentals of dither and anti-aliasing; and used by people who don't even know that they exist.

cheers,
David.

[Pio2001]

Pio2001:

Just your ears got fooled a little bit... Y'know it 

But it's truth that maxi-singles, EPs and 45rpm LPs can sound in a very dynamic way because of the "loosy grooves"... I had the first two LPs from Metallica on 45rpm DoLPs and they sounded definitely better than the same Metallica CDs in that time (1989)

I knew from a long time that this record "sounded" dynamic, and I wouldn't have posted anything about it (you know my ears aren't to be trusted, now, don't you ), if I didn't see the surprising shape of the beats : 23 db above the quietest instrument !

I shall measure the height of the beats above other instruments in the last CDs I bought, when I'm back home... just to have a good laugh.

[KikeG]

Unlike digital, with analogue you can hear well below the noise floor.

That could be true, if you didn't use dither. Using dither, signal dissapears into noise floor just as in analogue. In fact, it's better, since you can control the shape the noise floor.

Appogee, pioneers in dither, ADC & DAC realised this when they first formulated the concept of dither in digital recordings.

IIRC dither was known and used in Bell Labs several decades ago. It is a fundamental part of digital, I don't think it is an invention of a particular brand. I've done some newsgroups research, and seems that Apogee just designed a particular type of dither that needs less noise. Still, noise-shaped dither is quite superior to this UV22 dither.

Digital just stops (distortion) at the noise floor.  Analogue fades naturally, well below hiss or crackle

Not if you use dither.

[tacitus10]

Sorry about the Apogee stuff. Excuse my ignorance.

This post has been edited by tacitus10: Apr 7 2003, 14:33

[2Bdecided]

That's OK. It's not ignorance - it's normal to believe what you've read or heard, unless you've come into contact with the opposite opinion.

D.

[JonPike]

I am appalled to think of all the great performances sitting around on first-pressing records which I'll never hear.

That's why I desperately buy every "original masters" CD/LP I'm interested in as I see it, regardless of the price... and the price is high

Speaking of the differences between LP and CD... sometimes they are two different animals!

Have been playing with making a clean copy of Frank Zappa's "Hot Rats". I've been listening to it
a lot, and am pretty familiar with the album. My friend gives me his CD copy of the album to compare
with, and I'm BLOWN AWAY by how different it is!

Like it's REALLY different! As in the mix is completly different, there are extra instruments not found on
the LP on some tracks, and the whole second side seems to be a completly different set of recordings! (of the same songs)

So, sometimes it's not just the differences between analog and digital...

Jon

[budgie]

Like it's REALLY different!  As in the mix is completly different,  there are extra instruments not found on
the LP on some tracks,  and the whole second side seems to be a completly different set of recordings! (of the same songs)

Sure thing, the mix can change the sound a lot... in many cases you have really the feeling listening to something quite different you used to know

[Shpongled]

I think the real question that people want answered is, is vinyl worth it?

For starters the some things people like about them are the fact they have larger artwork, somethings are released only on vinyl, and vinyls are very low price.

[gib]

That has to be a record for a thread exhumation. Almost 4.5 years!

[Light-Fire]

CD's are a lot better than vinyl (except for the artwork.) When I bought my first CD player my plan was to slowly replace all my vinyls. But the CD sound was so far superior that, after listening to it for a week, I decided to trade all vinyls while they still worth something. The problem is some titles were never released as CD's.