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Topic: Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables (Read 8257 times) previous topic - next topic
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Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Hi,

I'm gonna have a gig for New Year's Eve and need to use my own loudspeakers as booth monitors with a DENON DN-X1700.

The 1700 accepts only 2xTRS (1/4'' balanced connections) for both outputs, while my loudspeakers only have one TRS input -OR- a XLR (Cannon) -OR AGAIN- 2xRCA inputs.

What's the matter?

1) I would need to have a cable that goes 2xTRS-2xRCA, but such a cable does not exist (it starts 1xTRS-2xRCA)

2) I would need to have a cable that goes 2xTRS-1xXLR, but such a cable does not exist (same reason as before)

So I have thought about using two separate booth monitors with 2 separate TRS 1/4'' cables.

My monitors are Wharfedale Pro EVP-X12P.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Tyrexionibus

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Tyrexionibus on
2) I would need to have a cable that goes 2xTRS-1xXLR, but such a cable does not exist
According to the spec sheet the Wharfedale has "Jack/XLR combo / RCA line level" inputs. This means that you should be able to use TRS-TRS or TRS-XLR cables (unless I've missed something). These are easily available. As always: try your setup at home when you still have time to modify things

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #2 –
OK. DENON has clarified that the 1/4'' sockets in the booth out are mono sockets, that, combined/merged together, make out a stereo ouput. This makes sense.

So, basically, they've told me I have to choose out of two possible solutions:

1) A cable that starts from 2xTS (2x1/4'' mono) and ends 1xTRS (1/4'' stereo). [Does such a cable exist?]
2) A RCA cable that goes from the REC OUT output in the DN-X1700 to the RCA line level in the Wharfedale. In this manner, however, I won't have dedicated booth volume control on the mixer.

Does a 2xTS-to-1xTRS cable exist, though?

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #3 –
I looked this up on Google image search, and looked at the connections for both devices. To me it seems like you just need a TRS<->TRS cable going from the mixer to each speaker. Or a TRS<->XLR, since the speaker has universal sockets.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #4 –
Can you give more details about your setup ? I think there's some info missing.
Is your source mono or stereo ? I get the impression that your mixer output (booth) is stereo (L/R) and you want to feed that to a single speaker (to hear yourself) while keeping the Master output stereo. Correct ?
Sending both L+R outputs to a single input (Y-splitter cable) is generally not a good idea. Isn't the mixer capable of making a mono (booth) output by summing L+R ? In that case you can use either the L or the R output to feed one speaker.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #6 –
Quote
Can you give more details about your setup ? I think there's some info missing.
Is your source mono or stereo ? I get the impression that your mixer output (booth) is stereo (L/R) and you want to feed that to a single speaker (to hear yourself) while keeping the Master output stereo. Correct ?
Sending both L+R outputs to a single input (Y-splitter cable) is generally not a good idea. Isn't the mixer capable of making a mono (booth) output by summing L+R ? In that case you can use either the L or the R output to feed one speaker.


The source (mixer output) is TRS, i.e. two mono sockets that merged together make a stereo output (TRS).

My idea is to make a cable that goes from two mono sockets (which are, actually, TRS) to one TRS socket (or to one XLR socket).

Two cables to one, in other words. Because my booth only has one TRS/XLR input.

Is that a bad idea?

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #9 –
Having checked the documentation I can better understand your confusion as some of it is contradictory.

Asuming that your problem is that the mixer has stereo booth out with no mono sum option but you only have a single powered speaker as your monitor.

Don't worry about it. Simply connect a single cable from one of the booth outs to speaker input. By convention this is the L channel.

The subleties of stereo will be lost to you when your are working anyway even assuming the sources are not mono to begin with.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #10 –
Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
Asuming that your problem is that the mixer has stereo booth out with no mono sum option but you only have a single powered speaker as your monitor.

He stated in the OP very clearly that he intends to use two monitors, not one.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #11 –
No he didn't. He said he was 'thinking about usin two separate booth monitors........'

Anyway, on reflection, his problem seems to be that he doesn't realise that a 3 stranded balanced  TRS/XLR cable carries a single channel rather than stereo.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #12 –
Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
Don't worry about it. Simply connect a single cable from one of the booth outs to speaker input. By convention this is the L channel.

The subleties of stereo will be lost to you when your are working anyway even assuming the sources are not mono to begin with.


I have contacted the DENON DJ technician for this.

He's said: "the booth out is TRS but can be 2xTS mono, which, merged together, make a TRS stereo channel".

OK.

Assuming what you said is doable: I would plug only one TRS socket of the (mixer) booth out to the TRS socket input of the booth monitor. In case, I would need just a TRS-to-TRS cable, which is simpler to do and solves the issue.

This shall mean I would lose stereo audio, but do I imperatively need it on a booth monitor?

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #13 –
OK, some updates from here.

I've finally managed to get some pics of the configuration we wanna use:

PICTURE #1: The loudspeaker/booth monitor.



PICTURE #2: A TS-to-XLR[male] cable.



PICTURE #3: A TS-to-TS cable.



Only one doubt remains:

You can easily figure out that the loudspeaker (sorry, the pic is actually a bit dark) has an XLR entry for low frequencies and a 1/4'' entry for high frequencies.

In the mixer, assumed that, by convention, the electrical ground is the L side, what side should I plug the XLR and the TS cable to?

In other words: in what channels do the highs (1/4'' on the booth monitor, 1/4'' on the mixer) and the lows (XLR on the booth monitor, 1/4'' on the mixer) fit?

They are distinct, by the loudspeaker's side.

Thanks for your help. Again.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #14 –
Are you sure this is the correct meaning?

I understand "low -Z" as low impedance, and "High -Z" as high impedance. And usually the 1/4th cable is used with guitar amplifiers and microphones, while the TRS is used from a line level source.

But what this really show is that this is mono.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #15 –
Quoting what a mate DJ has said:

"You should not use both cables together, or the booth monitor will sound bad. Just use the 1/4'' for highs and give up the XLR"

I'm assuming this is partly true, because a booth monitor doesn't need powerful lows as well as an XLR cable can give. It needs "standard" lows but they can be regulated using the lows knob.

But it's possible that the lows knob would be disabled, if no XLR cable would be plugged to the booth monitor.

My final decision is to make some tests using both configurations (two cables, one cable; switching both the 1/4'' and the XLR) with a low power (about 20%) in the booth level in the mixer and test how the booth monitor sounds.

So let's roll out your doubts, guys  they will help me better analyze the issue! What do you think?

[JAZ], what do you mean with "low -Z" and "High -Z" as low impedance? What would happen if I plugged one or both cable(s) to that booth monitor?

Technical specifications for my DENON DN-X1700 rate the impedance for the booth monitor as "more than 600 Ohms" and the level as +4 dBu.

Also, the manual says that "BOOTH OUT" is a "balanced 1/4'' TS terminal"; in another page, it says "these balanced TRS terminals are [...] ".

Plus, this image shows that both sockets have to be TRS:



So, this contradicts what the DENON technician has said. Both cables have to be balanced in order for it to work, and this configuration would not work.

Does a TS-to-TRS working cable exists?

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #16 –
I do not have much experience in this subject, so that's why I haven't contributed until now.

But what I mean is that the connectors don't seem to be for the purpose of driving lows and highs separately like you suggest. (I can be wrong, I admit. And +4dbU means professional level line . -20dbU is consumer level line ).



So, if you have to drive a single speaker, then use L channel out from the mixer. If you have two speakers and only one of them has the connectors... where is the cable that goes from one speaker to the other?


Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #17 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on


So, if you have to drive a single speaker, then use L channel out from the mixer.


Perfect, that's what I was asking

Quote from: [JAZ] on


If you have two speakers and only one of them has the connectors... where is the cable that goes from one speaker to the other?


I don't have two speakers, I have only one speaker with two connectors. The question was about the issue regarding the fact if I was to use both connectors (high-Z + low-Z) or just one o them.

I will use a 1/4'' connector from the L booth out of the mixer to the high-Z of the speaker; but the mixer accepts only outgoing TRS and I have a TS cable.

Do TS-to-TRS adaptors exist and do they work? Also, you spoke about impedance (high-Z), does the cable have to be high-impedance to be connected to a high-Z or does impedance affect just the mixer?

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #18 –
Reedited:

If i understand it correctly, a TRS cable is like a stereo TS cable, where one of the channels is used for balancing (and the cable in general is better shielded for longer lengths).
It also seems that balanced outputs are generally +4dbU and unbalanced ones are -20dBU, so it is a thing to verify.

Using a balanced cable on unbalanced hardware is fine. (you just will lose the benefits of a balanced cable in terms of noise reduction).
But an unbalanced cable should not be used between two balanced hardware (because there would be a short-circuit).

Your mixer is balanced, so if the speaker is unbalanced you would need a TRS cable that will work as an unbalanced one (afaik, it should work, without the benefits of being balanced).

From the cables you post, you don't have that, so the XRL (mixer) to the TS (speaker) would seem the best fit. But I guess that's not what you want, because that's the master out. So the solution is still getting a TRS cable.


Edit: About the "Z", I am not used to seeing that letter on inputs, so that confused me. I don't pretend to confuse you more than necessary.

Question about booth monitor loudspeaker and cables

Reply #19 –
"But an unbalanced cable should not be used between two balanced hardware (because there would be a short-circuit)."

Yes, that's the matter. The mixer is TRS on its side, so I think I will be forced to use a TRS-to-TRS cable, balanced on both sides.

If the speaker is not balanced on its side, I'll just lose, as you said, the benefits of being balanced.