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Extract and Archive DTS 96/24
spodemaster
post Jun 3 2011, 06:25
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Just wondering if there is anyway to extract and archive the DTS 96/24 files. I spent Money buying myself A Refurbished Dennon DVD-A/SACD player and it doesn't Decode the DTS-96/24. And the multichannel playback is distorted so is basically useless.
None of my software seems to support the Format. It only plays back in 48kHz. I just got a PS3 and an Octava HDMI audio Stream extractor For my Pre HDMI Yamaha in hopes it would play back DVD-A and DTS-96/24 apparently it does neither.

I would like to get my Monies worth out of the BJORK surrounded Disks I purchased, and Megadeath Peace Sells, and Tori Amos, but so far no luck.
I really don't want to purchase a new piece of Hardware, Just to listen to a handful of Disks that are encoded in an Esoteric Short Lived Format.

eac3to Recognizes the Tracks as DTS 96/24 but apparently can only extract the 48kHz Core.

Is there a good way to access the Native DTS 96/24 and convert it to a multichannel Wave or Flac or to simply play these back without buying yet another piece of hardware?

Right now I listen to a lot of multichannel Flacs and waves on My RME HDSP Multiface using FOOBAR2000 and the ASIO plug in. Its pretty Satisfying but a little klunky.

Anyhow any help appreciated.

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DVDdoug
post Jun 3 2011, 20:19
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I assume the discs are not encrypted or you have decrypted them... Almost all commercial DVDs are copy protected. (We don't discuss how to crack copy protection on this forum.)

I've decoded DTS to WAV once using Tranzcode. It was simple and worked perfectly, but apparently Tranzcode only supports 48kHz and 44.1kHz.

QUOTE
Just wondering if there is anyway to extract and archive the DTS 96/24 files.
These are DVD-Audio discs? Are you sure that's the format? I'm not a DVD-A expert... I'm just asking if you are sure...

From what I've read, the AOB files on a DVD-Audio disc should contain uncompressed LPCM or MLP. Maybe DTS is additional/optional???

If any of these discs are "universal" discs, there will be a 5.1 channel Dolby AC3 track in the VIDEO_TS folder, and it might sound identical to the "higher" resolution file, and it should be easier to play or extract...

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spodemaster
post Jun 4 2011, 05:30
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QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jun 3 2011, 21:19) *
I assume the discs are not encrypted or you have decrypted them... Almost all commercial DVDs are copy protected. (We don't discuss how to crack copy protection on this forum.)

I've decoded DTS to WAV once using Tranzcode. It was simple and worked perfectly, but apparently Tranzcode only supports 48kHz and 44.1kHz.

QUOTE
Just wondering if there is anyway to extract and archive the DTS 96/24 files.
These are DVD-Audio discs? Are you sure that's the format? I'm not a DVD-A expert... I'm just asking if you are sure...

From what I've read, the AOB files on a DVD-Audio disc should contain uncompressed LPCM or MLP. Maybe DTS is additional/optional???

If any of these discs are "universal" discs, there will be a 5.1 channel Dolby AC3 track in the VIDEO_TS folder, and it might sound identical to the "higher" resolution file, and it should be easier to play or extract...


Nope these disks the audio streams are .vob files. There is no .mlp like what is on stangdard DVD-A. I don't really know the Histroy but DTS 96/24 apparently has a 48khz Core for players that can't decode the 96/24.

I was pretty pissed off to learn that my DVD-Audio Player Dennon DVD-1930CI was only able to read the core of the .dts audio.

The onlything I know for sure is that eac3to recognizes that its a DTS 96/24 file but can't extract it as such it can only extract the core (I read that one can Transcode but havent figured out). I do own the disks
As far As I can tell its not an issue of cracking copy protection but an issue of decoding the dts 96/24 since nothing seems to support it.

Oh well I'll have to just live with 48/16 or 48/24
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A_Man_Eating_Duc...
post Jun 4 2011, 06:29
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Maybe you need to have the ArcSoft DTS Decoder installed for EAC3TO to extract the HD material, i know you need it for bluray.


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spodemaster
post Jun 4 2011, 07:02
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QUOTE (A_Man_Eating_Duck @ Jun 4 2011, 07:29) *
Maybe you need to have the ArcSoft DTS Decoder installed for EAC3TO to extract the HD material, i know you need it for bluray.


I think the one I got now is too new, but still not sure if will work. Its supposed to work for DTS HD which is not the same as DTS 96/24
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andy o
post Jun 4 2011, 10:12
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As far as I know, plenty of receivers are capable of decoding DTS 96/24, even older SPDIF ones, let alone HDMI ones. It's esoteric only on available content, but not in decoding options. I'm gonna double check if I can decode it here, I'll see if I have some samples. What's your model of receiver? BTW if you haven't realized already, you have a DVD-video disc, not DVD-A. These DTS 96/24 discs were sort of a cheap, simple alternative to SACD and DVD-A, cause they could be played by regular DVD players, and passed through SPDIF, IIRC.

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andy o
post Jun 4 2011, 10:34
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So I tested it, and sure enough, I can decode it with the Arcsoft decoder, and I can also bitstream it to my receiver, which decodes it properly (Pioneer VSX-01TXH). I haven't tried eac3to, but the Arcsoft dtsdecoderdll.dll file from TMT2 does decode it. The ones from TMT3 and TMT5 probably do too. If you wanna use eac3to to decode it to a wav file, you probably need to register the ASAudioHD.ax from TMT 3.185. The one from 3.190 downsamples to 48kHz. Not 100% sure for eac3to, but that applies if you use the Arcsoft decoder to decode in your player. As far as I know, you can use one ASAudioHD.ax with another dtsdecoderdll.dll.

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spodemaster
post Jun 4 2011, 18:58
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QUOTE (andy o @ Jun 4 2011, 11:34) *
So I tested it, and sure enough, I can decode it with the Arcsoft decoder, and I can also bitstream it to my receiver, which decodes it properly (Pioneer VSX-01TXH). I haven't tried eac3to, but the Arcsoft dtsdecoderdll.dll file from TMT2 does decode it. The ones from TMT3 and TMT5 probably do too. If you wanna use eac3to to decode it to a wav file, you probably need to register the ASAudioHD.ax from TMT 3.185. The one from 3.190 downsamples to 48kHz. Not 100% sure for eac3to, but that applies if you use the Arcsoft decoder to decode in your player. As far as I know, you can use one ASAudioHD.ax with another dtsdecoderdll.dll.



I have a Dennon DVD-1930CI, which is underwhelming since it has distortion problems on multichannel SACD and DVD-A And the BJORK surrounded only play at 48kHz through it.
I have a PS3 I'll test my PS3 when I get my HDMI to analog converter.

One can't decode more than 4 channels of 96/24 Via optical, so that must be the core 48khz stream.

I have a Yamaha RXV - 2500 Its pre HDMI but is 7.1 decoder, with 5.1 analog inputs. Hench the Octava HDMI switch, I'm waiting for.

I'll see If I can find these TMT packs and see what do.

Also playback from my PC is hampered because Not to many PC software manufacturers support assigning multichannel ASIO sound cards.
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krabapple
post Jun 4 2011, 19:15
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foobar2000 can output a multichannel ac3/dts bitstream over S/PDIF (or HDMI, if your soundcard has that option) to audio hardware that can decode them. To do this you need the foo_spdif plugin (and NOT foo_dts or some other conversion plugin) , and need to fiddle a bit with the output settings.

I like to tag my files, so after I have a .dts or .ac3 track in hand, I send it through audiomuxer to put a .wav wrapper around it, then compress it to .flac with tags.


Btw the 'extra' information in a DTS 96/24 track (compared to the core 48kHz track) is frequencies >20Khz. Do you really expect those to matter?

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spodemaster
post Jun 4 2011, 20:46
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Jun 4 2011, 20:15) *
foobar2000 can output a multichannel ac3/dts bitstream over S/PDIF (or HDMI, if your soundcard has that option) to audio hardware that can decode them. To do this you need the foo_spdif plugin (and NOT foo_dts or some other conversion plugin) , and need to fiddle a bit with the output settings.

I like to tag my files, so after I have a .dts or .ac3 track in hand, I send it through audiomuxer to put a .wav wrapper around it, then compress it to .flac with tags.


Btw the 'extra' information in a DTS 96/24 track (compared to the core 48kHz track) is frequencies >20Khz. Do you really expect those to matter?


I use the ASIO plugin on Fubar, it works pretty good, but needs some of the coding fixed. If I skip to a new track, that has a new sample rate, it gets confused and looses my channel assignments. So I have to reconfiger the ASIO routing. It doesn't do this if I use the time bar to fast forward.

To an extent they do matter If one can still hear in the 20kHz range. Last time I tested my self I can hear a 20kHz sine wave at sufficiently high levels, not that I find a 20kHz sine wave particularly pleasant to listen to.

It can be argued that if your transducsers are able to reproduce in the extended frequency ranges that there can be modulation from higher ranges interacting. But in practice most peoples systems can't and don't produce anything in that range, nor is there content captured for the most part.

My own personal (custom built) system is quite flat up to 20kHz, and actually has about 110dB headroom at 20Hz in half space.

My own personal impression of having the extended HF on a well mastered not heavilly maximized recording is theres a lot more openness in the high hats and percusive attack is much snappier.







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I think I would especially like to hear the full 96/24 Bjork it looks like the mastering engineers chose to avoid any maximizing on the tracks, looking at the 48kHz core waves.
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andy o
post Jun 5 2011, 00:04
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I'm pretty sure DTS 96/24 can do multichannel 5.1 over SPDIF. I don't see why not, the bitrate is the same as regular DTS.
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greynol
post Jun 5 2011, 01:09
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QUOTE (spodemaster @ Jun 4 2011, 12:46) *
My own personal impression of having the extended HF on a well mastered not heavilly maximized recording is theres a lot more openness in the high hats and percusive attack is much snappier.

Please review our Terms of Service, to which you agreed to abide upon registering. What I have quoted is not compliant with #8.


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spodemaster
post Jun 5 2011, 02:30
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QUOTE (andy o @ Jun 5 2011, 00:04) *
I'm pretty sure DTS 96/24 can do multichannel 5.1 over SPDIF. I don't see why not, the bitrate is the same as regular DTS.


Well I'll Be damned, It does work my decoder supports it. Funny thing is I was trying to use my Analog Outs on my DVD-A / SACD Player and It was Fail.

It works fine through VLC.

I suppose it does pass through optical and the reciever has the codecs to interprate it.

Here's to esoteric short lived Formats.
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andy o
post Jun 5 2011, 03:02
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Your DVD-A player is not required to support it, but many receivers that support DTS do support it. BTW, it was probably short-lived, because it has neither practical (audible) nor "audiophile" (BS) advantage. On both counts, it offers the worst of each. It uses the same bitrate, but includes inaudible content (leaving less data for actual content), and at the same time, golden-eared audiophiles wouldn't accept such a lossy solution when they could have DVD-A or SACD.

PS: If you wanna decode it with a DirectShow player, you can install LAV audio filters (installing LAV splitter recommended) use the dtsdecoderdll.dll from TMT and drop it in the LAV audio folder. VLC will probably not decode it.

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spodemaster
post Jun 5 2011, 03:15
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 5 2011, 01:09) *
QUOTE (spodemaster @ Jun 4 2011, 12:46) *
My own personal impression of having the extended HF on a well mastered not heavilly maximized recording is theres a lot more openness in the high hats and percusive attack is much snappier.

Please review our Terms of Service, to which you agreed to abide upon registering. What I have quoted is not compliant with #8.



Well I've had some trouble with Blind A/B/X My first attempt when SACD came out was to buy a copy of Beck Sea Change SACD, and The Redbook version. It was a futile comparison because the mastering was radically different on the SACD VS Redbook.

I Like the Stereo Mix Down of S'Wonderful and the Diana Crawl Look of Love DVD-A for a good exaple of extended highs on the high hat. I haven't done a dirrect AB with the redbook version but they are similar masters.

How about this I'll throw together some Tracks That should demonstrate or disproove the values of extended Frequency Response. I'll just Make 96kHz masters and down convert them to 48kHz. That way people can come to their own conclusions.
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nifedipin
post Jun 5 2011, 11:38
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Hi!
Try to extract dts with dvd audio extractor[I can't remember if suports 24/96 dts] or demux the dvd in vobedit...open dvd in ifoedit and save chapters as txt.....
Try to load dts file in foobar 2000 with dts plugin[hopefully suports 24/96 dts] and save as multich wave or multich flac.
Use the txt file[previously saved] to generate or create a cue file...
That's it!
Enjoy!
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db1989
post Jun 5 2011, 15:34
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QUOTE (spodemaster @ Jun 5 2011, 03:15) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 5 2011, 01:09) *
QUOTE (spodemaster @ Jun 4 2011, 12:46) *
My own personal impression of having the extended HF on a well mastered not heavilly maximized recording is theres a lot more openness in the high hats and percusive attack is much snappier.
Please review our Terms of Service, to which you agreed to abide upon registering. What I have quoted is not compliant with #8.
Well I've had some trouble with Blind A/B/X My first attempt when SACD came out was to buy a copy of Beck Sea Change SACD, and The Redbook version. It was a futile comparison because the mastering was radically different on the SACD VS Redbook.

I Like the Stereo Mix Down of S'Wonderful and the Diana Crawl Look of Love DVD-A for a good exaple of extended highs on the high hat. I haven't done a dirrect AB with the redbook version but they are similar masters.

How about this I'll throw together some Tracks That should demonstrate or disproove the values of extended Frequency Response. I'll just Make 96kHz masters and down convert them to 48kHz. That way people can come to their own conclusions.
The rule requires evidence for your claims, rather than requiring that others verify them. Also, holy arbitrary capitalisation, Batman.
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spodemaster
post Jun 5 2011, 21:09
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Jun 5 2011, 15:34) *
QUOTE (spodemaster @ Jun 5 2011, 03:15) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jun 5 2011, 01:09) *
QUOTE (spodemaster @ Jun 4 2011, 12:46) *
My own personal impression of having the extended HF on a well mastered not heavilly maximized recording is theres a lot more openness in the high hats and percusive attack is much snappier.
Please review our Terms of Service, to which you agreed to abide upon registering. What I have quoted is not compliant with #8.
Well I've had some trouble with Blind A/B/X My first attempt when SACD came out was to buy a copy of Beck Sea Change SACD, and The Redbook version. It was a futile comparison because the mastering was radically different on the SACD VS Redbook.

I Like the Stereo Mix Down of S'Wonderful and the Diana Crawl Look of Love DVD-A for a good exaple of extended highs on the high hat. I haven't done a dirrect AB with the redbook version but they are similar masters.

How about this I'll throw together some Tracks That should demonstrate or disproove the values of extended Frequency Response. I'll just Make 96kHz masters and down convert them to 48kHz. That way people can come to their own conclusions.
The rule requires evidence for your claims, rather than requiring that others verify them. Also, holy arbitrary capitalisation, Batman.


My fingers Know whens They Wants to shIft.

Well I made a repeatable test that can be confirmed by anyone that can still hear in the 17kHz range. It doesn't relate to percussives, but its this.
I generated a 25kHz signal which phase shifts 360degrees at a rate of 1Hz.

I used the 25kHz signal as the carrier and Amplitude Modulated it by 8.333kHz (25kHz is 3rd Harmonic).

This process resulted in only the side bands, then I summed the Carrier back into the signal.

The rusulting signal isn't much to listten to but Its much different soudning than when I convert the Wave to a 48kHz 16bit wav.

I'm not going to describe the differences so I don't tweek your expectations.

I'll post a torrent of the files a little bit later. This was all done using Adobe Audition, most of my listening was done on a pair of senheisser HD 280 PRO's. And a little bit on my living room speakers.

This is of course a highly contrived situation, and most likely not going to be happening in most recorded music but it does illustrate the point that having higher frequenies present can effect the audible spectrum.

And almost anybody with something like Adobe Audition can recreate this test rather quickly.
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krabapple
post Jan 21 2013, 15:04
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To sort-of reiterate the thread topic, does anyone know a tool that extracts (*not* decodes) the core + extension data of a DTS 96/24 signal from DVD-V?

It appears to me that both Audiomuxer and DVD Audio Extractor (in 'direct stream Demux' mode) extract only the 48kHz DTS core of a DTS 96/24 track. E.g. foobar2000 with the foo_spdif plugin shows the resulting .dts file signal as 48kHz, 6channels.

This is of academic interest only as I don't believe anyone is hearing the >20 kHz 'extension' data -- but it's curious to me because my AVR still
reports the streamed signal as 'DTS 96/24' -- perhaps a metadata thing?

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Engelsstaub
post Jan 21 2013, 16:38
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I would have thought DVDAE would do it. I guess it must not though. My only interest is in extracting the 2-channel PCM from my DVD-As due to the fact that my DVD-A/SACD player pretty much needs a monitor to tweak settings. If I just burn the track I want to a cheap DVD-R I don't have to worry about which track it's playing.

Maybe it's just me but it looks like the OP got baited into a TOS 8 violation. (I wish it could also be a TOS violation for zealots posters to interrogate posters with OT-things like "do you really think you can hear those frequencies?" when that had nothing to with the OP's topic.)

(Edited for being an a__hole.)

This post has been edited by Engelsstaub: Jan 21 2013, 16:48


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krabapple
post Jan 21 2013, 17:48
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Jan 21 2013, 11:38) *
I would have thought DVDAE would do it. I guess it must not though.



DVDAE has this disclaimer in its website FAQ
QUOTE
My disc comes with a 96kHz DTS stream, but the extracted result shows as 48kHz. Why?
This is a known limit. For DTS-ES and DTS-HD MA streams which come with a core stream and one or more extended streams, only the core stream (48kHz) is currently decoded by DVD Audio Extractor. And this limit only exists on DTS format. For all other formats like MLP, TrueHD, LPCM, etc, all sample rates are supported. We do look forward to adding full DTS support in the future.



When I load a DVD-V with a DTS 96/24 audio track, the selection window of DVDAE displays the DTS track as: 'English DTS surround sound mode (48kHz, 6ch)' . Also, if I extract using the 'convert to PCM' (instead of direct demux) , using the sample rate option 'same as input', the output file tops out at 24 khz on a spectrogram. So I suspect the limitation is there (and I am using the latest version of DVDAE).

And when I extract using Audiomuxer, the .dts files it creates are very similar in size (though not identical in size) to the direct-demux-option .dts files created by DVDAE. I woudl have expected true core+extension ripping to produce a much bigger file than core alone. Ergo, I concluded that Audiomuxer's ripper must be limited to the core too. Asking over on SurroundByUs, the Audiomuxer developer says it isn't, though....

FWIW, I've verified this behavior with multple DTS 96/24 discs.

RE-EDIT: here is the actual size difference :
Direct stream demux using DVDAE (which claims to be limited to core): 251,044 KB (it's a long track!)
Audiomuxer extraction of same track: 251,091 KB



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krabapple
post Jan 21 2013, 21:52
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Got if figured out now. Both DVDAE and Audiomuxer DO rip the core + extension audio data to a 96/24 .dts file. Neither of them out-of-box can rip it directly to a 96/24 pcm .wav file -- i.e., decode the DTS data to PCM, save it as .wav. That is limited to just the 48khz core, so the output is 48/24 PCM,a nd content above 24 kHz is lost. Audiomuxer with an Arcsoft extension pack can decode the core+extension and save it as 96/24 PCM .wav, with all content included up to 48kHz. I verified this by spectral views in Audition.

For my purpose, which is to simply archive the data to .dts, and wrap it in a .wav header so I can then make a taggable flac file from it, the software decoding isn't necessary, but I'm happy to pass along what I've learned ---

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Engelsstaub
post Jan 21 2013, 22:59
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Well that is good to know. Thanks for getting to the bottom of it. It's too bad Audiomuxer is not cross-platform like DVDAE, but I guess that's what a VM is for smile.gif


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andy o
post Mar 22 2014, 16:17
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A year late, but I'd like to point out that apparently the only way to decode DTS-HD (or 96/24) outside of proprietary blu-ray players is with the dtsdecoderdll.dll file, which I'm betting is in that "Arcsoft extension pack" for Audiomuxer. You can also use it with DirectShow players, but it was a little convoluted, had to manually register an .ax file from the TotalMedia Theatre installation and keep some other files, but by far the easiest is to use LAV filters and drop the dll file in its folder, no need to register anything else or keep any other Arcsoft files.

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