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GAPLESS Playback now in iPods - New!, Apple just announced today! GAPLESS playback...!
Jojo
post Sep 16 2006, 19:56
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My observations:
  1. iTunes does read the Lame-Tag
    • some songs I've cut with pcutmp3 now stop / start at the right place
    • gapless songs blend in perfectly
  2. iTunes plays other non Lame mp3's gapless as well
    • there is no need to mark the album as gapless or anything (that will only have an effect if one has crossfading enabled, which is turned off by default now)
    • there is a little crackle for non Lame encoded files and there might be a slight pause, but if there is one I didn't hear it during casual listening


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greynol
post Sep 16 2006, 20:35
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QUOTE (Jojo @ Sep 16 2006, 11:56) *
My observations:
  1. iTunes does read the Lame-Tag
    • some songs I've cut with pcutmp3 now stop / start at the right place
    • gapless songs blend in perfectly
  2. iTunes plays other non Lame mp3's gapless as well
    • there is no need to mark the album as gapless or anything (that will only have an effect if one has crossfading enabled, which is turned off by default now)
    • there is a little crackle for non Lame encoded files and there might be a slight pause, but if there is one I didn't hear it during casual listening

Great, but to get back on-topic, is this working on your iPod or are you only talking about iTunes?

Considering no one wants to take this off-topic discussion here, perhaps the mods can split it to a new thread titled, "GAPLESS Playback now in iTunes7."

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 16 2006, 20:37


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Althalus
post Sep 16 2006, 20:39
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Might not be the right place, but since I'm quite confident some of the developers will read this thread.

Be proud of this release. Excellent product.

Thank you !
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pika2000
post Sep 16 2006, 20:57
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Another reason to just stick with the recommendations. I use Lame MP3 -V 2 --vbr-new only, straight ripped from EAC without any additional processing, and so far every gapless albums are perfect, both on iTunes7 and 5G iPod (firmware 1.2). It's funny that if one find that his/her iPod is not gapless with 1 codec he/she uses, then he/she decided it's the fact that the iPod is not gapless with anything and claimed gapless playback on iPod is invalid, even though we already have many reports about users (including me) enjoying perfect gapless playback on their iPods.

This post has been edited by pika2000: Sep 16 2006, 21:00


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greynol
post Sep 16 2006, 21:04
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QUOTE (ShowsOn @ Sep 13 2006, 05:23) *
It works with my 4th Generation iPod Photo (later versions were called iPod Color)

Can anyone else verify this?


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garym
post Sep 16 2006, 21:11
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I too have good results with gapless on my IPOD 5G 60GB model, updated to ver 1.2. Lame encoded VBR files (many are encoded with 3.90 LAME version) work gapless (by "work" I mean based on careful listening, not any formal tests). I have lots of live music concerts and these really put the gapless to the test! Older files I have encoded with Fhg, CBR 192 also seem to play well as gapless on the IPOD.

I will say that with VBR files, particularly long files (some of mine are 25 minute songs), you can't simply move the slider to the end of the song to test the gapless transition. If I do this, I often get a gap from one song to another. But if I let the song play from the beginning the gapless works fine.
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singaiya
post Sep 16 2006, 23:14
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QUOTE (garym @ Sep 16 2006, 13:11) *
I too have good results with gapless on my IPOD 5G 60GB model, updated to ver 1.2.


Hmmm.... I updated to itunes 7 and on my ipod summary page it says "Software version: 1.1" and below that it says "Your ipod is up to date." and the update button is greyed out. Does anyone else experience this? I bought my 5G 60GB in February (this year).
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ffooky
post Sep 16 2006, 23:23
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QUOTE (singaiya @ Sep 16 2006, 23:14) *
QUOTE (garym @ Sep 16 2006, 13:11) *

I too have good results with gapless on my IPOD 5G 60GB model, updated to ver 1.2.


Hmmm.... I updated to itunes 7 and on my ipod summary page it says "Software version: 1.1" and below that it says "Your ipod is up to date." and the update button is greyed out. Does anyone else experience this? I bought my 5G 60GB in February (this year).
I Don't know how the Windows version looks but under the iTunes menu, select "Check for Updates". On my OS X system, the updated firmware option didn't appear until I performed this action. Unless you have a 5G Pod forget gapless, no matter what you may read.
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Sylvain
post Sep 17 2006, 02:54
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QUOTE (pika2000 @ Sep 16 2006, 15:57) *
Another reason to just stick with the recommendations. I use Lame MP3 -V 2 --vbr-new only, straight ripped from EAC without any additional processing, and so far every gapless albums are perfect, both on iTunes7 and 5G iPod (firmware 1.2). It's funny that if one find that his/her iPod is not gapless with 1 codec he/she uses, then he/she decided it's the fact that the iPod is not gapless with anything and claimed gapless playback on iPod is invalid, even though we already have many reports about users (including me) enjoying perfect gapless playback on their iPods.


Well I found it strange tht you have gapless using Lame (VBR) and EAC.

i have tried EAC with Lame 3.97 using VBR (-v 0 --vbr-new) and in Itune I still have a little gap between my tracks of Madonna - Confession on a dance floor

I notice at the end of the track when I check the remaining time left at the end it jump from 0 to -2 and then jump to the next song an I can hear a little gap. I have also tried using CBR 256 with lame & EAC and the same gap problem.

So far the only way i get gapless is by ripping the CD directly from Itunes using (AAC-256-VBR, MP3 VBR256). Ripping the CD from Itunes just work great ! Real Gapless !

So for my gapless CD I will use Itunes with AAC (256 VBR) and for all my other CD I will still use EAC with lame v3.97 (256 VBR).

I just can't find the way to make mp3 files with (EAC & Lame) with gapless playback in Itunes and soon my new Ipod Video 80G that I preorder this week. Hope I will gat gapless in my Ipod also.

For all people who use the crossfade playback don't forget to enable " gapless Album" so Itunes will not crossfade this album when playing and you will see if you can get gapless plyback.

Even better just disabled the crossfade playback option for your testing.
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pika2000
post Sep 17 2006, 06:00
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QUOTE (Sylvain @ Sep 16 2006, 18:54) *
Well I found it strange tht you have gapless using Lame (VBR) and EAC.

i have tried EAC with Lame 3.97 using VBR (-v 0 --vbr-new) and in Itune I still have a little gap between my tracks of Madonna - Confession on a dance floor

I notice at the end of the track when I check the remaining time left at the end it jump from 0 to -2 and then jump to the next song an I can hear a little gap. I have also tried using CBR 256 with lame & EAC and the same gap problem.

Try this. On EAC, go to the menu EAC -> EAC options -> Extraction. Make sure the checkbox for "Delete leading and trailing silent blocks" is checked.


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Sylvain
post Sep 17 2006, 07:08
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QUOTE (pika2000 @ Sep 17 2006, 01:00) *
QUOTE (Sylvain @ Sep 16 2006, 18:54) *

Well I found it strange tht you have gapless using Lame (VBR) and EAC.

i have tried EAC with Lame 3.97 using VBR (-v 0 --vbr-new) and in Itune I still have a little gap between my tracks of Madonna - Confession on a dance floor

I notice at the end of the track when I check the remaining time left at the end it jump from 0 to -2 and then jump to the next song an I can hear a little gap. I have also tried using CBR 256 with lame & EAC and the same gap problem.

Try this. On EAC, go to the menu EAC -> EAC options -> Extraction. Make sure the checkbox for "Delete leading and trailing silent blocks" is checked.

I have tried this and still have a little gap. I can hear it because I have good ears and probably some people wont notice it. The CD rip from Itunes is still the perfect solution for me so far.

Also, with this option enabled now my MP3 are no more 100% confidence with Accuraterip. So I uncheck this option and now my Mp3 rip is back to 100% with Accuraterip.

So this option is changing samples in the extraction process because I have made 2 wav files with the option enable and disable and compare them in EAC and they were different and one was longer .052.

Thanks for the advice but for now it is not the perfect solution.
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[JAZ]
post Sep 17 2006, 11:04
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May i ask.... that Madonna album is gapless??? even more... does Madonna make mixed albums, instead of individual songs?
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Egor
post Sep 17 2006, 12:29
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Yes, "Confessions..." is a gapless album (like a non-stop live performance).

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pika2000
post Sep 17 2006, 18:32
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QUOTE (Sylvain @ Sep 16 2006, 23:08) *
I have tried this and still have a little gap. I can hear it because I have good ears and probably some people wont notice it. The CD rip from Itunes is still the perfect solution for me so far.

Also, with this option enabled now my MP3 are no more 100% confidence with Accuraterip. So I uncheck this option and now my Mp3 rip is back to 100% with Accuraterip.

So this option is changing samples in the extraction process because I have made 2 wav files with the option enable and disable and compare them in EAC and they were different and one was longer .052.

A gap, no matter how small it is, will always be noticable. I don't hear any gaps/blips/clicks on my gapless albums. I use MD and Atrac, so I know if tracks are not played gaplessly.

If I have that checkbox unchecked, I don't even have gapless with my MP3s with foobar (have to use gapkiller to get gapless). I'd rather have gapless albums than worrying about 100% accuraterip/differences in file length, things that probably have nothing to do with the music anyway(probably more about EAC eliminating the silent blocks).

Maybe it's the optical drive? Try ripping the CD as an image file in EAC (1 big WAV file + CUE sheet). Load the image with Daemon tools, and let EAC rip to MP3s, from that image.

Of course, if ripping through iTunes give you perfect gapless, then I would just do that.

This post has been edited by pika2000: Sep 17 2006, 18:35


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greynol
post Sep 17 2006, 19:30
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QUOTE (pika2000 @ Sep 16 2006, 22:00) *
Try this. On EAC, go to the menu EAC -> EAC options -> Extraction. Make sure the checkbox for "Delete leading and trailing silent blocks" is checked.

ohmy.gif

Noooooooooo!!!

If EAC is messing up anything it is because a compression offset is configured. Why tell EAC to remove silence that actually exists on the disc?!?

The only reason to do this is if you're ripping from a CD-R that was burned with additional silence between tracks.

This was horrible advice!

This post has been edited by greynol: Sep 17 2006, 19:35


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jido
post Sep 17 2006, 22:41
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QUOTE (Sylvain @ Sep 16 2006, 17:54) *
I notice at the end of the track when I check the remaining time left at the end it jump from 0 to -2 and then jump to the next song an I can hear a little gap. I have also tried using CBR 256 with lame & EAC and the same gap problem.

Did you test that by fast-forwarding to the end of the song or did you let iTunes play the whole track as suggested by garym?
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Bonzi
post Sep 17 2006, 22:49
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Hi, just to echo what other people have been saying, I tested gapless on my 4G 20Gb Ipod and it does not seem to work sad.gif. Although gapless is turned on in iTunes and playback is gapless in iTunes, when these files are uploaded to the iPod they are no longer played back gaplessly.
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garym
post Sep 17 2006, 22:56
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QUOTE (jido @ Sep 17 2006, 15:41) *
QUOTE (Sylvain @ Sep 16 2006, 17:54) *
I notice at the end of the track when I check the remaining time left at the end it jump from 0 to -2 and then jump to the next song an I can hear a little gap. I have also tried using CBR 256 with lame & EAC and the same gap problem.

Did you test that by fast-forwarding to the end of the song or did you let iTunes play the whole track as suggested by garym?


I should point out that I tested the "getting gap when not playing the entire song" on several different songs on albums created over several years using different versions of LAME, Fhg, sometimes VBR and sometimes CBR. Some of these MP3s were created from original CD, some from FLAC files, and some from SHN (the latter mostly downloaded from live music archive (archive.org). I can consistently create gaps when I start a song and move it until about a minute from the end to wait for the song transition. On the same songs, when I start from the beginning, I don't get the gap. On shorter songs (less than 7 minutes or so) I can fast forward to about 2.5 minutes from the end and sometimes NOT get the gap. I suspect all this behavior is strictly related to the buffering mechanism of the IPOD itself. I believe it gathers about 20 minutes of music in its buffer and interfering with this via fast forwarding probably screws things up. I can say that I spent all day yesterday listening to live concert MP3s playing on the IPOD through a relatively good home stereo system and when left alone to play from beginning to end, I heard no gaps, ticks, etc. If you actually look at the IPOD while it is transitioning, you'll see some odd behavior with the counter on VBR files, but still the gapless works fine. I think the odd behavior on the counter with VBR files is something that has always been an issue with ITUNES and IPOD but in recent years has not been a problem on the actual playback itself.
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grommet
post Sep 18 2006, 02:01
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QUOTE (Bonzi @ Sep 17 2006, 14:49) *
I tested gapless on my 4G 20Gb Ipod and it does not seem to work sad.gif. Although gapless is turned on in iTunes and playback is gapless in iTunes, when these files are uploaded to the iPod they are no longer played back gaplessly.
Apple doesn't support gapless on anything but the latest iPod releases... 5G iPod and 2G nano. I think they made that fairly clear.
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Sylvain
post Sep 18 2006, 02:05
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QUOTE (jido @ Sep 17 2006, 17:41) *
QUOTE (Sylvain @ Sep 16 2006, 17:54) *
I notice at the end of the track when I check the remaining time left at the end it jump from 0 to -2 and then jump to the next song an I can hear a little gap. I have also tried using CBR 256 with lame & EAC and the same gap problem.

Did you test that by fast-forwarding to the end of the song or did you let iTunes play the whole track as suggested by garym?


Yes when I test I fast foward to about the last 20 seconds. With MP3 made with EAC & LAME I have a tiny gap when I test this way.

If I rip the CD from Itunes and use AAC or Mp3 I get gapless playback no matter if I fast foward at the end of the song or not.

Well I will need to test the gapless in I tunes for mp3 rip with EAC without fast fowarding and see if I get any gaps.
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pika2000
post Sep 18 2006, 07:09
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QUOTE (greynol @ Sep 17 2006, 11:30) *
If EAC is messing up anything it is because a compression offset is configured. Why tell EAC to remove silence that actually exists on the disc?!?

The only reason to do this is if you're ripping from a CD-R that was burned with additional silence between tracks.

This was horrible advice!

Why? The part removed is silent anyway.


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Cosmo
post Sep 18 2006, 07:28
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Because the issue we're talking about is extraneous gaps (padding) that are introduced by lossy encoders. Removing silent blocks (before the encoding takes place) isn't relevant and doesn't solve the problem.

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pika2000
post Sep 18 2006, 07:31
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QUOTE (Cosmo @ Sep 17 2006, 23:28) *
Because the issue we're talking about is extraneous gaps that are introduced by lossy encoders. Removing silent blocks (before the encoding takes place) isn't relevant and doesn't solve the problem.

How do you know who adds the gaps? How do you know it's the encoder? Regardless of the relevance, at least this will eliminate the potential that the gaps are introduced by the optical drive/EAC.

Again, I use EAC + LAME MP3, and all my gapless albums are played perfectly gapless on my 5G iPod, so I don't think Lame (the encoder) adds any additional gaps.

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Cosmo
post Sep 18 2006, 07:59
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QUOTE (pika2000 @ Sep 17 2006, 13:32) *
If I have that checkbox unchecked, I don't even have gapless with my MP3s with foobar (have to use gapkiller to get gapless).

If your ripped tracks (uncompressed) have added bits, which aren't on the original CD, then your drive is probably junk or broken. (or as greynol said, compression offset is misused). Or you're not talking about gapless in the sense of "tracks which are meant to transition seamlessly". A properly functioning drive and properly configured EAC will not add silence that didn't exist on the CD.

QUOTE (pika2000 @ Sep 18 2006, 02:31) *
How do you know who adds the gaps? How do you know it's the encoder?

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Gapless

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pika2000
post Sep 18 2006, 08:32
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QUOTE (Cosmo @ Sep 17 2006, 23:59) *
QUOTE (pika2000 @ Sep 18 2006, 02:31) *
How do you know who adds the gaps? How do you know it's the encoder?

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Gapless

So you're saying that Lame MP3s will always have additional gaps? That means Lame MP3 is never truly gapless then, regardless of tags/metadata information.

This post has been edited by pika2000: Sep 18 2006, 08:39


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