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Archiving vinyl once only 96/24?
matt_a
post Mar 26 2013, 16:11
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Hi All,

I wonder if you can help.
I have recently registered with HA but have been reading the forums for months.
Very interesting and informative.

Being a recovering so called 'audiophile (fool)' I think I have at last found some sense in the real world!
But thats a whole other story for a different thread!

I have a collection of some 2000 LPs that I want to archive to digital.
Now I release that the topics of 44/16 v 96/24 has been widely discussed but just to be clear and please
correct me if Im wrong on any of these points;

- Set the phono amp output to produce a max peak volume just below ADC clipping to maximise ADC coverage?

- 16 bits is more than enough, 24 bits does not produce a more detailed rip?

- Would 24 bits needed if I want to use declicking functions and rumble filters?

- If I always set the ADC input correctly normalisation should not be necessary?

- If tracks do need normalising to say -3db what does 24 bit over 16 bit prodivde?

- The noise floor is not lower with 24 v 16 bits, I dont think I understand the concept properly yet?

- 96K rather than 44K is worth doing for capture as it pushes any anti aliasing well out of the audio band.?

- There is no point in having a final cleaned corrected file greater than 44/16 as there is no audio benefit?

(BTW Im using a great software package called Vinyl Studio!)

Thanks for any comments,
Matthew
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DVDdoug
post Mar 26 2013, 21:47
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My 1st advice is always... Buy the CD, if it's avaliable! biggrin.gif With that many recordings, I assume cost is a big factor, so you might consider used CDs. Or, you might want to consider CDs or downloads only for recordings that are in poor condition.

You don't NEED 24/96, but if your hardware supports it there's no harm in using a high resolution format. 24/96 seems to be the current "studio standard". (But of course,that's way-overkill for digitizing "scratchy" vinyl.) You may also want to consider archive storage space. 24/96 requires about 3 times the space as 16/44.1. (By using FLAC or ALAC lossless compression you can disc space, but the 3:1 ratio still holds.) My small collection of digitized vinyl is archived on audio CD (16/44.1).

You might want to consider archiving the original digitized copy as well as the de-clicked copy. You can sometimes get artifacts from DSP, and I suspect that you are not going to carefully audition 2000 cleaned-up recordings. So, it might be useful having the ability to start-over without re-recording. (I normally keep an un-processed original only when I've done a LOT of EQ & noise reduction.)

QUOTE
- Set the phono amp output to produce a max peak volume just below ADC clipping to maximise ADC coverage?
Right... I usually shoot for between -3 and -6 dB. After digitizing, I check the peaks and if anything hits 0dB I assume it's clipped and I start-over at a lower level.

The idea is to get the best signal-to-noise ratio as possible. You can improve the theoretical signal-to-noise ratio by increasing the signal while the analog noise in the soundcard and the quantization noise remains constant. But of course, most of the noise is in your analog signal and that noise goes-up when you boost the signal, so it's not that critical unless you have a really bad soundcard.

QUOTE
- 16 bits is more than enough, 24 bits does not produce a more detailed rip??
Right. Two reasons... Our ears are not that good. And with analog vinyl, there is so much analog noise that you cannot make use of all that digital resolution or digital dynamic range.

Noise is basically randomness added/subtracted to the digital value. If I say the digital value is 1000, but there is noise of +/- 100, that means the real/original value could be anywhere between 900 and 1100. It doesn't help at all if I add resolution and get 1000.000 or 1000.001. The noise/uncertainty makes that resolution/precision useless.

QUOTE
- Would 24 bits needed if I want to use declicking functions and rumble filters??
Some filters & effects may work better at higher resolution. But since there is no useful information in those extra bits, the DSP programmer could have easily increased the resolution (bit depth and/or sample rate) for temporary processing, and then convert it back. In fact, most audio software works internally at 32-bit floating-point. Some DSP effect algorithms may increase the sample rate temporarily, but it's not common.

QUOTE
- If I always set the ADC input correctly normalisation should not be necessary??
it's not always "necessary", but it can be helpful and there's no harm in normalizing (after all other processing). You can't predict the peaks, so you need headroom when recording. But, you don't need that headroom in your finished digital audio file, and you just might want to make it louder. (It's best to normalize the album as a whole, so that quiet songs remain relatively quiet and loud songs remain loud, etc.)


QUOTE
... - If tracks do need normalising to say -3db what does 24 bit over 16 bit prodivde??...

... - The noise floor is not lower with 24 v 16 bits, I dont think I understand the concept properly yet??
More bits results in lower quantization noise. But at 16-bits the quantization noise is at -93 or -96dB... That's way below any other noise in the recording. If you want to know how quiet that is, try reducing the level by to -80 or -90 dB in your audio editor. Play the original file as loud as you like, and then listen to the -80/-90dB copy (without touching the volume control). That should also demonstrate that you are not loosing any "detail" at 16-bits. If you want to know what quantization noise sounds like, make an 8-bit file.

QUOTE
- 96K rather than 44K is worth doing for capture as it pushes any anti aliasing well out of the audio band.??
I've never heard any problems with aliasing or with anti-aliasing filters.

QUOTE
- There is no point in having a final cleaned corrected file greater than 44/16 as there is no audio benefit??
True.

QUOTE
(BTW Im using a great software package called Vinyl Studio!)?
I haven't used Vinyl Studio. For recording, your choice of software doesn't matter. The recording software basically just sends the ADC output-data to a file on your hard drive. But for cleaning-up clicks & pops, some software works better than others and there are trade-offs between removing defects and adding artifacts. (I use Wave Repair in the manual mode, but with 2000 records I don't recommend that for you.)




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Posts in this topic
- matt_a   Archiving vinyl once only 96/24?   Mar 26 2013, 16:11
- - DonP   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 10:11) - If ...   Mar 26 2013, 19:18
- - matt_a   Btw I didn't want to prejudice any answers but...   Mar 26 2013, 19:54
- - AndyH-ha   If you are by some means certain of what the peak ...   Mar 26 2013, 20:23
- - Dynamic   On clicking preview, I see AndyH has replied. We v...   Mar 26 2013, 20:37
- - saratoga   I would record at 48k/24 bit, then after processin...   Mar 26 2013, 20:44
- - DVDdoug   My 1st advice is always... Buy the CD, if it...   Mar 26 2013, 21:47
- - matt_a   Thanks for the answers. Im curious though as to w...   Mar 26 2013, 22:01
|- - db1989   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 21:01) Im cu...   Mar 26 2013, 22:14
|- - mjb2006   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 14:01) I ass...   Mar 27 2013, 04:42
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 17:01) I...   Mar 29 2013, 18:54
- - matt_a   Sorry DVDdoug your reply beat my next question whi...   Mar 26 2013, 22:12
- - matt_a   Ive just realised something fundamental! Why ...   Mar 26 2013, 22:23
|- - DonP   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 16:23) Why a...   Mar 27 2013, 01:36
- - db1989   Either placebo effect and marketers exploiting it,...   Mar 26 2013, 22:31
- - Porcus   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 16:11) - 16 ...   Mar 27 2013, 00:10
- - Apesbrain   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 17:23) Why a...   Mar 27 2013, 01:29
- - cliveb   You've had lots of good answers. I have just a...   Mar 27 2013, 10:12
|- - mjb2006   QUOTE (cliveb @ Mar 27 2013, 02:12) These...   Mar 27 2013, 12:04
- - Engelsstaub   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 26 2013, 09:11) ...BT...   Mar 27 2013, 10:53
- - 2Bdecided   16/44.1 is more than good enough, and has maximum ...   Mar 27 2013, 12:33
- - matt_a   Great Advice!! Ive learnt more from this ...   Mar 27 2013, 15:39
|- - pdq   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 27 2013, 10:39) Anoth...   Mar 27 2013, 15:55
|- - db1989   Whilst I agree that another discussion on jitter i...   Mar 27 2013, 16:14
|- - matt_a   Thats a bit rude isnt it? Especially after all the...   Mar 27 2013, 16:51
|- - db1989   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 27 2013, 15:51) Thats...   Mar 27 2013, 16:57
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (matt_a @ Mar 27 2013, 15:51) Thats...   Mar 27 2013, 17:53
- - greynol   In the context of this discussion, any amount of j...   Mar 27 2013, 16:24
- - greynol   Please don't top-post.   Mar 27 2013, 16:53
- - Mach-X   Indeed perhaps being naive about jitter, and not r...   Mar 27 2013, 16:57
- - matt_a   Quite right, I was too hasty on the keyboard, sorr...   Mar 27 2013, 17:16
- - matt_a   I forgot to mention that its interesting listening...   Mar 27 2013, 17:40
- - matt_a   I have had a really good read through all the FAQ ...   Mar 27 2013, 19:02
- - krabapple   If you're going to sample at higher than Redbo...   Mar 29 2013, 20:42
- - greynol   Sampling and playback at higher rates is (was?) us...   Mar 29 2013, 20:48
|- - DonP   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 29 2013, 14:48) Samp...   Mar 29 2013, 22:01
- - greynol   Oversampling; sure. I didn't mean to suggest ...   Mar 29 2013, 22:05


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