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HDMI audio de embedder?
MikeFord
post Apr 15 2013, 09:05
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My AVR is analog and spdif only, and my only HDMI display is a old 19", but it won't be that way forever so I have been looking at devices to bridge me slowly into the future. One device I am considering is a Pioneer universal DVD player (DVDA and SACD), but it has no analog outputs and only HDMI works with some media.

Will a HDMI audio de embedder like the Atlona or its ilk give me a high quality and/or multichannel DTS or something output for the old receiver via toslink where the DVD player would not?

What exactly do these boxes do?
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probedb
post Apr 15 2013, 09:40
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What is it you're trying to accomplish?

DVD players usually have S/P-DIF out so that'll go to your AVR and the HDMI can go to the display.
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MikeFord
post Apr 16 2013, 01:33
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QUOTE (probedb @ Apr 15 2013, 01:40) *
What is it you're trying to accomplish?

DVD players usually have S/P-DIF out so that'll go to your AVR and the HDMI can go to the display.

I was looking for capability beyond what most DVD players support over the spdif. Further research seems to indicate no, or not much, and that you have to setup the DVD player to support the HDMI format.

Initially it looked to me like DSD might be passed over the HDMI, but maybe only 1394 does that. It isn't entirely clear to me yet how SACD, DVDA, or Blueray might differ between player spdif and HDMI extracted spdif.
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Mach-X
post Apr 16 2013, 03:55
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QUOTE (probedb @ Apr 15 2013, 04:40) *
What is it you're trying to accomplish?

DVD players usually have S/P-DIF out so that'll go to your AVR and the HDMI can go to the display.


He's talking about dvd-a, not dvd-v. Hires formats like sacd and dvd-a require hdmi input/output due to copy control. They will not transmit over spdif. However, sacd contains redbook as well, which WILL play fine on any cd player, but at 44.1/16. DVD-A discs can contain dvd-v content but again, it is not required and will only play back at 48/16 over spdif. So it really defeats the purpose of spending such a large amount of money on a hires player when you can't access the hires content. Of course the merits (or lack thereof) of high resolution audio are discussed elsewhere.
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washu
post Apr 16 2013, 04:20
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the OP is trying to accomplish, but what exactly do you intend to do with the audio signal after it has been demuxed from the HDMI? Either the audio is going to be in an SPDIF compatible format which gains nothing, or an incompatible format which an old AVR can't deal with. You could potentially have a multi-channel external DAC if the AVR has the correct inputs, but a quick check of the Atlona site shows they cost almost as much as a decent low-end AVR anyway.

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probedb
post Apr 16 2013, 08:55
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QUOTE (Mach-X @ Apr 16 2013, 03:55) *
He's talking about dvd-a, not dvd-v. Hires formats like sacd and dvd-a require hdmi input/output due to copy control. They will not transmit over spdif. However, sacd contains redbook as well, which WILL play fine on any cd player, but at 44.1/16. DVD-A discs can contain dvd-v content but again, it is not required and will only play back at 48/16 over spdif. So it really defeats the purpose of spending such a large amount of money on a hires player when you can't access the hires content. Of course the merits (or lack thereof) of high resolution audio are discussed elsewhere.


I didn't say anything about DVD-V?

You still need to decode the audio whether it's split from HDMI or not. Supposing you can get such a device that will just decode HDMI audio then you still have to get it into your AVR. Unless it has multi-channel analogue in then you're stuck with either analogue stereo or whatever you can accept over S/P-DIF so it all seems like a lot of effort and expense for no/not much gain. You'd be better just buying a new AVR IMO.
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MikeFord
post Apr 16 2013, 12:28
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I don't know what is possible with the de embedding HDMI boxes, and spdif is not well supported in some cases on SACD, DVDA, Bluray players.

If the HDMI audio de embedding boxes won't do anything better than the spdif on a player, I have little interest. If they do support better modes, then I do have interest and will worry about what to do to process the data once I know what it is. I don't see that as a likely big issue otherwise the boxes would not exist.

I'm not sure HDMI into a receiver is the way to go either, could be 1394 is a better option.
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probedb
post Apr 16 2013, 12:51
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What do you mean not well supported? It's been on all DVD players since day one. I have a 1st gen Sony DVD player and it has a S/P-DIF out otherwise it couldn't support multi-channel surround.

IEEE1394/Firewire was pretty much for video and I think you got some external drives for Macs.

I still can't work out what you are actually wanting to accomplish?
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krabapple
post Apr 16 2013, 19:07
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I suggest the OP splurge for a modern AVR that DOES have HDMI inputs.

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MikeFord
post Apr 16 2013, 20:33
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 16 2013, 11:07) *
I suggest the OP splurge for a modern AVR that DOES have HDMI inputs.

Paypal donations are welcome, I'd like at least something on the level of what I have, maybe a Pioneer SC65. I want efficient class D to stay as green as possible.

Firewire, 1394, ilink, as I understand it will carry the full DSD signal from a SACD drive.

Plain DVD is not an issue, BluRay is, SACD is.

The point that seems to continue to be missed is that I "don't know" what these devices are capable of, and seek to find that out prior to making any choices.
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DVDdoug
post Apr 16 2013, 21:10
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QUOTE
Paypal donations are welcome
You can get a home theater receiver for about the same price as as the de-embedder gizmo. Basically you are paying $200 USD for something that comes free with the receiver (unless you have a special need for line-level analog surround outputs, etc.). If you want something "better" or "greener" I guess that's up to you.

QUOTE
I want efficient class D to stay as green as possible.
The amplifier class isn't going to tell you much about how much wall-power a receiver consumes. Under normal listening conditions, the power lost in the output stage is insignificant.
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washu
post Apr 16 2013, 22:05
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QUOTE (MikeFord @ Apr 16 2013, 15:33) *
Paypal donations are welcome, I'd like at least something on the level of what I have, maybe a Pioneer SC65. I want efficient class D to stay as green as possible.

A Pioneer SC65 would certainly decode many formats, but why do you think you need such a high end AVR? For example Yamaha's current low end AVR would do the same and only costs $50 more than the "HDMI de embedder". There are other AVRs in the same price range and good quality.
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Firewire, 1394, ilink, as I understand it will carry the full DSD signal from a SACD drive.

Given that neither the SC65 or the Atlona box does this what is the point?
QUOTE
Plain DVD is not an issue, BluRay is, SACD is.

BluRay over HDMI is fine, any decent AVR will support all the audio formats that BluRay supports. SACD is fine as long as the player decodes to discrete PCM channels over HDMI. It is possible to get a player and AVR combo that will pass raw DSD over HDMI, but none of the devices being discussed support that.
QUOTE
The point that seems to continue to be missed is that I "don't know" what these devices are capable of, and seek to find that out prior to making any choices.

The Atlona box and most modern AVRs support the same formats. They don't support raw DSD. The Atlnoa is a poor value unless you already have a great AVR that has discrete analog inputs.
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Mach-X
post Apr 16 2013, 23:44
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QUOTE
I didn't say anything about DVD-V?


You keep saying 'all dvd players support spdif'. Those dvd players only play back dvd-v. dvd-a requires a dedicated player in order to play back the hi res format on them, and it requires hdmi. They won't even play back the higher resolution audio through analog stereo connections.
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phofman
post Apr 17 2013, 08:18
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Considering the requirements and the amount of posts regarding this issue (in the other thread too), I fully agree with the suggestion to sell the existing non-HDMI receiver and get a new inexpensive one with standard HDMI support. IMO it is the least expensive, least time-demanding and least knowledge-requiring way.
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probedb
post Apr 17 2013, 08:23
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QUOTE (MikeFord @ Apr 16 2013, 20:33) *
Plain DVD is not an issue, BluRay is, SACD is.


But you said you had a DVD player, why is Blu-Ray a problem? You can't play it anyway? Your amp also doesn't have Firewire/IEEE1394.

Until you can afford to buy either a multi-format Blu-Ray player with decent analogue out like an Oppo or buy an AVR that accepts these formats over HDMI, then I don't believe that you can't do anything about it. You're limited by what your AVR can accept as an input.

QUOTE (Mach-X @ Apr 16 2013, 23:44) *
You keep saying 'all dvd players support spdif'. Those dvd players only play back dvd-v. dvd-a requires a dedicated player in order to play back the hi res format on them, and it requires hdmi. They won't even play back the higher resolution audio through analog stereo connections.


They only require a player that supports the format, you might still be able to buy a dedicated player that only plays back DVD-A/SACD but I'm not sure if they're still available? My first DVD-A player (an old Pioneer DVD-575A, now with my parents) played DVD-V/DVD-A/SACD, by second DVD-A player (a shiny new Oppo BDP-93) plays DVD-V/DVD-A/SACD/Blu-Ray. Both will playback DVD-A and SACD hi-res through their analogue stereo outputs as they are also sold for their ability to playback these hi-res formats into a stereo amp for example. In fact the Oppo has a pair of dedicated stereo analogue outputs just for such a purpose.

This post has been edited by probedb: Apr 17 2013, 08:24
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Mach-X
post Apr 17 2013, 10:59
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I stand corrected, they WILL play back through analog outputs, but not spdif, which you kept mentioning. But the unit the OP is looking at has no analog outputs, ie, if he wants hi res audio, it's a new receiver with hdmi or a hi res player with analog outputs. Talking of bypassing the copyright encryption using some 'magic box' i believe is against TOS.
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probedb
post Apr 17 2013, 11:13
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QUOTE (Mach-X @ Apr 17 2013, 10:59) *
I stand corrected, they WILL play back through analog outputs, but not spdif, which you kept mentioning. But the unit the OP is looking at has no analog outputs, ie, if he wants hi res audio, it's a new receiver with hdmi or a hi res player with analog outputs. Talking of bypassing the copyright encryption using some 'magic box' i believe is against TOS.


Sorry, it's because the OP kept talking about S/P-DIF and how it had problems but never explaining what they were.

Indeed, I think several of us have given the same solution now, whether or not the OP listens is another matter wink.gif
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db1989
post Apr 17 2013, 11:40
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QUOTE (Mach-X @ Apr 17 2013, 10:59) *
Talking of bypassing the copyright encryption using some 'magic box' i believe is against TOS.
This is correct. I haven’t been able to decide whether anything here requires moderation as I haven’t seen a clear explanation of what the OP wants, but the term “de-embedder” sounds as though it might be problematic.
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washu
post Apr 17 2013, 17:34
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Apr 17 2013, 06:40) *
This is correct. I haven’t been able to decide whether anything here requires moderation as I haven’t seen a clear explanation of what the OP wants, but the term “de-embedder” sounds as though it might be problematic.


Unless I have missed something, I believe OP is referring to the "HDMI Audio De-Embedder with 3D Support" on Atlona's website. It appears to take an HDMI signal in and split out the audio into TOSLINK and 7.1 analogue channels (4 x 1/8" jacks). Lists a bunch of common formats supported, one of which is NOT DSD. The video is then passed through via an HDMI output. Basically the same thing as the input section of a modern AVR in a separate box. I don't see any claims that it is bypassing DRM.

http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-Audio-De...3D-Support.html

As I've said before in this thread, I personally think the device is a very poor value. It costs nearly $200, for not much more one could have a full AVR that supports the same formats.
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MikeFord
post Apr 30 2013, 09:51
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Clarifying ....

The only HDMI device I own is an OLD pc 19" display which I hooked up to a cable box for some testing a few years ago. Without the display the cable DVR had some issue recording HD content, and we planned on a new display soon then as now. I have "some" idea of what can be done with HDMI, but little certainty, except that functionality varies between devices outside of the basics.

The goal is incremental upgrades supporting as much of the existing gear as possible, which includes a media/HTPC with a bluray drive and 10TB of storage. Post was prompted by looking at the Pioneer BDP62 universal player on sale for $200 with DVDA and SACD, but no analog outputs, only HDMI and spdif. The next major purchase will be a new display with HDMI replacing a crt with svideo.

Atlona, no plans to buy this specific overpriced device, only mentioned as generic example of the type of device, with the idea of using the BDP62 with existing Sony spdif input AVR. If a similar device around half the price was able to output the DSD over HDMI information as DTS over spdif it would solve most existing issues.

Yamaha or other new AVR, all brands are savvy to product differentiation so many features may be included in base models, sets of features remain exclusive to each tier of higher priced models. Power output tracks pricing tiers, which along with other features give me little interest in entry level models.
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probedb
post Apr 30 2013, 10:32
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So just buy the BDP62 and use S/P-DIF until you upgrade your AVR and then you can use the HDMI. Just accept you'll be outputting from the Pioneer whatever your AVR can accept over S/P-DIF until you upgrade. Pretty simple really.

This post has been edited by probedb: Apr 30 2013, 10:33
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washu
post Apr 30 2013, 15:48
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QUOTE (MikeFord @ Apr 30 2013, 04:51) *
Atlona, no plans to buy this specific overpriced device, only mentioned as generic example of the type of device, with the idea of using the BDP62 with existing Sony spdif input AVR. If a similar device around half the price was able to output the DSD over HDMI information as DTS over spdif it would solve most existing issues.


Emphasis mine. What you are looking for is not a audio spitter/decoder, but a standalone transcoding box. Something that will transcode DSD or multi-channel PCM to DTS. I can say with 99.9% certainty that such a device does not exist. If it did exist it would be way more expensive than the Atlona box as there would be a lot more processing involved. Audiophiles would be up in arms about something that "reduced"* the quality of DSD to lossy DTS.

I see that you are focusing on getting DSD working over HDMI. My advice is to ignore that and just make sure your player decodes DSD to PCM properly. While there are a few devices that support DSD over HDMI, it is very uncommon. A quick check shows that none of Pionner's, Yamaha's or even Sony's current top end receivers support DSD over HDMI. The BDP62 can output bit-streamed DSD or 5.1 PCM for SACD, so just use the latter.

To make it clear, even if you had the Pioneer BDP62 and the Pioneer Elite SC-68 you could not do DSD over HDMI, you would have to do 5.1 PCM.

* I'm making no audibility claims on this transcode, just that it is lossless-> lossy.
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MikeFord
post May 2 2013, 11:55
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QUOTE (washu @ Apr 30 2013, 07:48) *
QUOTE (MikeFord @ Apr 30 2013, 04:51) *
Atlona, no plans to buy this specific overpriced device, only mentioned as generic example of the type of device, with the idea of using the BDP62 with existing Sony spdif input AVR. If a similar device around half the price was able to output the DSD over HDMI information as DTS over spdif it would solve most existing issues.


Emphasis mine. What you are looking for is not a audio spitter/decoder, but a standalone transcoding box. Something that will transcode DSD or multi-channel PCM to DTS. I can say with 99.9% certainty that such a device does not exist. If it did exist it would be way more expensive than the Atlona box as there would be a lot more processing involved. Audiophiles would be up in arms about something that "reduced"* the quality of DSD to lossy DTS.

I see that you are focusing on getting DSD working over HDMI. My advice is to ignore that and just make sure your player decodes DSD to PCM properly. While there are a few devices that support DSD over HDMI, it is very uncommon. A quick check shows that none of Pionner's, Yamaha's or even Sony's current top end receivers support DSD over HDMI. The BDP62 can output bit-streamed DSD or 5.1 PCM for SACD, so just use the latter.

To make it clear, even if you had the Pioneer BDP62 and the Pioneer Elite SC-68 you could not do DSD over HDMI, you would have to do 5.1 PCM.

* I'm making no audibility claims on this transcode, just that it is lossless-> lossy.

Its not clear that players such as the Pioneer BDP62 support any type of output via spdif for all media types. Sometimes manufacturers are not forthcoming about what their devices will or won't do in other than typical configurations. Three possibilities are no output or stereo only via direct spdif from the player, HDMI to de embedder spdif same as player, and different from player direct, perhaps DTS. If the direct player spdif output is the same as the HDMI de embedded spdif, it does nothing for me, but as I said if either support DTS then its a solution. Maybe I will just take my SACD disc to a Best Buy and see what one of them will do via toslink.

I just checked the owners manuals for both the SC68 and BDP62, SACD DSD over HDMI is supported by both, and seems like a common enough feature reaching well into the mid line of most brands.
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MikeFord
post May 2 2013, 12:19
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Reading more of the BDP62 owners manual, page 46 runs down the output modes supported by format. For everything except DVDA and SACD both HDMI and spdif support DD or DTS 5.1. For DVDA and SACD spdif is limited to PCM 2ch, HDMI in Bitstream is PCM 5.1 and DSD 5.1 respectively, HDMI in PCM or reencode is PCM 5.1. If the HDMI PCM 5.1 is unencrypted, which is possible if it is a lossy compression format then a deembedder may work fine. The reencode mode says it uses DD or DTS.
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