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what's this surface noise on my spectral?, vinyl rip...
spiralinsana
post Oct 4 2013, 20:12
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What is this surface noise I'm seeing on the right side of my spectral? I've seen it on a few spectrals but not all. On this one it's particularly loud and in one channel only. I've checked my cart alignment with a Hi Fi News test LP. I pass the tracking tests but only the first 2 bias tests. My cart seems perfectly aligned when I check it with a Rega Bearwald protractor from vinylengine.com. I have a Rega P3-24 with a Benz Micro Ace cart btw.

I need some help here cause I have no idea what's causing this.

thanks!

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2Bdecided
post Oct 4 2013, 21:02
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33 times per minute.

Record wear. Damaged stylus? Either now, or a previous time it was played?

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Oct 4 2013, 21:04
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spiralinsana
post Oct 4 2013, 22:17
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Oct 4 2013, 16:02) *
33 times per minute.

Record wear. Damaged stylus? Either now, or a previous time it was played?

Cheers,
David.

yes, the noise is per revolution. But it's been present on brand new records in the past. And I'm thinking it would be present on every record if it was stylus wear or damage.

My stylus has quite a bit of life left in it. But the folks at Benz Micro told me the rubber suspension does dry up over time and the cart has a shelf life of 6 years. I should be good for about another 2 years. As far as usage/wear is concerned, it has more than 70% left in it. It wasn't used much...

I just tested my set up again with the test LP and I cannot track the last band without definite distortion on the right side which would be consistent with the spectral (it's usually at the beginning and end of records). I don't know... cart looks as perfectly aligned as possible witht the protractor and is not known as a bad tracker. I just don't know what else I can do at this point.

Perhaps I could try and tweak the alignment but which way should I turn it? I'm quite the layman when it comes to those things... unsure.gif
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mzil
post Oct 4 2013, 23:55
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Do you have a microscope to inspect the stylus tip?
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AndyH-ha
post Oct 5 2013, 01:40
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I've had noise in one channel from a deformed cantilever, as in with a bit of twist.
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AndyH-ha
post Oct 5 2013, 01:57
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My hypothesis, based on looking at the cantilever-diamond interface with a 16X loop, or maybe a 30X so called microscope, was that the twist meant that the diamond did not come down perpendicularly in the groove, it leaned towards one side. Surprisingly, to me, the audio itself seem all right. There was just added noise in one channel.

As I think I recall it, from some years ago, part of the noise was somewhere along the line of rather small clicks and pops to crackle, some of it was broadband. It could be cleaned up pretty well, post recording, but it was a relief once I had a new, undamaged stylus.
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spiralinsana
post Oct 5 2013, 02:22
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Thanks for the replies! They are much appreciated.

After close inspection I noticed my cantilever is not perfectly straight. Which means the cart is aligned but not the cantilever. I will re-align it with the cantilever instead of the cart body and see how it sounds. I tried the test LP again and I can't pass the last tracking test... (the band closest to the label)

Unfortunately, I don't have a microscope or anything of the sort. I hope it's not worn at an angle. Hopefully I can tweak the alignment and be good to go..

I'll report back.

Again, thanks for the help!

This post has been edited by spiralinsana: Oct 5 2013, 02:23
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spiralinsana
post Oct 31 2013, 21:20
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I still haven't resolved this problem....

hear is another rip on which the noise is present on both channels



I talked to someone who has the same pressing and has ripped it and he confirmed that the pressing is not the problem. His rip is fine. And my vinyl is mint.

My cart is as properly aligned as possible... with a free (Stevenson) printed protractor from vinyl engine.


I really can't figure out what's causing this noise....

here's an excerpt: http://www.mediafire.com/?y4nvz66t3hi992n

This post has been edited by spiralinsana: Oct 31 2013, 21:35
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mjb2006
post Oct 31 2013, 23:20
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QUOTE (spiralinsana @ Oct 4 2013, 19:22) *
After close inspection I noticed my cantilever is not perfectly straight.


Our vinyl myths wiki article says "No stylus has a cantilever that is perfectly straight."

Alignment guides often refer to cartridge body, as that's much easier to eyeball, but the intent is to align with the cantilever.

This post has been edited by mjb2006: Oct 31 2013, 23:28
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spiralinsana
post Nov 1 2013, 03:37
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yes, I know. But I don't see how that explains this noise...

And if the stylus is the culprit, why is the noise sometimes on one channel only, sometimes in both and sometimes non-existent?

It this a tracking issue?

This post has been edited by spiralinsana: Nov 1 2013, 03:41
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mjb2006
post Nov 1 2013, 03:48
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I wasn't trying to explain the noise. smile.gif
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spiralinsana
post Nov 1 2013, 03:55
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oh OK smile.gif
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Glenn Gundlach
post Nov 1 2013, 04:16
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Back in 1984 I had an LP cut from a digital master tape. The LPs have a MUCH higher (10-15 dB) noise floor than the tape. I also got the lacquer masters which I played once. The noise on the lacquers is nearly the same as the tape. The fact that LPs can sound as good as they sometimes do is quite the testament to the engineers. The stylus shouldn't create any significant noise unless it is SO badly worn that it is re-cutting (destroying) the disc.

The weakest points in any system are the transducers that convert the signal from mechanical or optical to electrical and back to mechanical or optical. Why any one would insist on adding more transducers to the system makes no sense to me and then try to convince me it's better ... It's NOT. I don't doubt some of you prefer LPs so please enjoy them. But don't be surprised when you discover the MYRIAD shortcomings of LPs.

G
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spiralinsana
post Nov 1 2013, 05:42
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QUOTE (Glenn Gundlach @ Oct 31 2013, 23:16) *
...unless it is SO badly worn that it is re-cutting (destroying) the disc.

I think we can rule that out as this was the first play af a brand new mint record? Can a misaligned cart or mistrackig cause that noise?

QUOTE (Glenn Gundlach @ Oct 31 2013, 23:16) *
But don't be surprised when you discover the MYRIAD shortcomings of LPs.


Like I said, I compared my rip of this LP with someone's rip of the exact same LP (also ripped from LP in brand new mint condition) and the noise was not present on his rip. The noise was not audible nor visible on his spectral. So the record itself is not at fault.


I wish I could find the cause. I can't fix it until I do... And unfortunately, I don't have a spare cart to compare...

I can't believe I'm the only one to whom this has ever happened...

This post has been edited by spiralinsana: Nov 1 2013, 05:42
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mzil
post Nov 1 2013, 07:21
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QUOTE (spiralinsana @ Oct 31 2013, 21:42) *
So the record itself is not at fault.

Just because your friend has the same LP from the same pressing doesn't mean he has the same, individual record. If his stamp was early in the production run and yours was just before they stopped using it due to wear, they aren't of the same quality, for example, [not that I'm suggesting that's the specific issue.]

I think you need to play this exact copy you own on an alternate turntable/cartridge to verify the noise isn't embedded in the actual grooves (as I fear). Figuring out how it got there is a secondary question.

As far as I'm concerned, a single playing on a record player system with a chipped, worn, caked with debris needle, improper tracking force, or a bent cantilever, can potentially cause irreparable harm to the groove walls. Having a way to visually inspect the needle under magnification is a good idea even if you weren't having a particular issue.

This post has been edited by mzil: Nov 1 2013, 07:32
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krabapple
post Nov 1 2013, 12:00
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ah, the magic of 'vinyls'
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spiralinsana
post Nov 1 2013, 16:42
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it's a special limited edition of 125 copies, so stamp wear or his copy being different to mine is highly unlikely. And this is not the only record on which I've had this problem. Sometimes in one channel, sometimes in both.

I'd love to be able to do some kind of comparison but I only have one table and one cart. And as I've mentioned before, I've had this problem on other records I've ripped. Records that were being played and ripped for the first time as well.

Is it even possible to add that kind of surface noise to a record on one play due to a faulty set up? I would imaging that even with double tracking force, insanely off VTA and excessive bias.. it wouldn't be possible. And my table is quite accuratetly set up...

Nonetheless, I am really hesitant to play anything until I figure out what's causing this...
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mzil
post Nov 1 2013, 17:43
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Here's how to verify if the noise is indeed in the groove wall, without owning a secondary TT, or has to do with your TT/cartridge/tonearm/bearings/etc.:

1. Play and rip a record track, or just a passage to save time, where you hear this recurring, per rotation noise. [You can't use one of your existing recordings, you need to make a new one for this test].

2. Lift the arm up and stop the platter rotation as you normally do.

3. Very carefully, lift the record off the platter and rotate it 90 degrees before replacing it down on the spindle.

4. Re-record exactly what you did in step #1, making a secondary recording you will then compare to the first one.

5. Listen to the two rips, synchronizing them based on a peak in the music, and see if the per revolution swoosh noises occurs at the exact same location, relative to the music, or if you have displaced its location by .45 seconds [that's assuming it is a 33.33 record, where of course a full 360 degree rotation would be 1.8 seconds. If on the other hand this is a 45 rpm record, then the 90 degree, one quarter rotation displacement should cause a .3325 second change, if the noise is not embedded in the groove walls, that is.]

Conclusions:

A. "The swoosh noise occurs at exactly the same location relative to the music" means it is embedded in the grooves and there is no way to get rid of it. [Except that some styli, to a small degree, play different sections, or groove depths, and the damaged area may not be all the way up and down the groove wall, top to bottom. This is not worth pursuing, however.]

B. "The swoosh noise has been time displaced" means your TT/cartridge/tonearm/alignment is the cause.

Makes sense?

This post has been edited by mzil: Nov 1 2013, 18:08
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spiralinsana
post Nov 1 2013, 18:15
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why didn't I think of that!


Thanks mzil!


I'll do the test and report back. Cheers!
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spiralinsana
post Nov 2 2013, 00:14
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Turns out I had a few takes already. I usually do a few of them when ripping and keep a few files at various input levels for final editing.

The noise is in the same spots in all of them. One click is presents on all of them and the recurring noise is in the same place relative to it.

But I'm still not convinced the vinyl is at fault.


My initial thought was that this happens on the more challenging pressings tracking wise. I think my cart is mistracking and has become impossible to align.

It's an old (not the S) Benz Micro Ace and it's 5+ years old. The suspension's o-ring rubber damper starts going bad after about 5 years as it dries up and affects the suspension.

My cantilever is not only slightly askew (which can be aligned) but it also shifts to the left under the cart's own tracking weight. It shifts to the side in a parallel motion without changing angle, effectively making aligning it impossible. The result is the same as if the sliding holes of the arm went from side to side instead of front to back and the cart was moved to the left. The cart looks fine when it's raised but as soon as it hits the record surface azimuth, overhang and alignement is messed up.

I don't know, it is very unlikely that there is something wrong with the record since it's such a small edition and no one else has reported anything wrong with the pressing. It's not impossible but at this point, I would need to play it with another cart or on another table to be convinced.

That will be my next move... I need a new cart anyway. I will also write the artist to ask if anyone has reported anything.
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