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Wavegain vs. MP3Gain, Why the former might be better...
Jebus
post Jun 21 2003, 21:34
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From: Calgary, AB
Member No.: 5541



Yes, I know that MP3Gain is lossless. No, I am not talking about how MP3Gain is limited to 1.5dB steps (though this is another reason).
What I am thinking is this:

Psychoacoustic models tend to encode louder signals with more bits, right? This is why remasters (compressed) tend to use higher bitrates than older versions. Correct?

If we are then encoding a VERY LOUD album with LAME -aps for instance, then normalizing it down say 10.5dB (for a really bad one), aren't we wasting bits? Wouldn't we be able to save some bits by normalizing it down to 89dB FIRST, then encoding it?

I know wavegain is NOT LOSSLESS, but I am (incorrectly) assuming that this is just a theoretical lossiness, not a perceptible one. If this is the case, couldn't we argue that wavegained tracks will be of lower bitrates while still maintaining transparency (the goal, afterall, of -aps)?


---------------------------------
| UPDATE (May 21st, 2005) |
---------------------------------

The discussion below basically concludes that running a wavegain analysis, then applying the recommended scalefactor to lame (via the --scale switch) will save bits due to high-frequency bloat inherent in the mp3 format. Lots of people have since chosen to use this method over mp3gain, and in fact it can be automated now from within EAC using Wack, or my own Omni Encoder. Read on!

This post has been edited by Jebus: Jul 18 2006, 14:05
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2Bdecided
post Jul 2 2003, 11:12
Post #2


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 4959
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



DickD,

Life is very difficult if you have ideas, but can't program! I should know...


However, if you ask enough people nicely, something may happen. You can email people who you think could help, or start a new thread with your idea at the top and hope they read it.

Cheers,
David.
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Posts in this topic
- Jebus   Wavegain vs. MP3Gain   Jun 21 2003, 21:34
- - Garf   Why not test the theory?   Jun 21 2003, 21:56
- - Jebus   Doing that right now... ETA 5min on the encode   Jun 21 2003, 22:02
- - Echizen   *lol* a new way to save bits. first decrease the v...   Jun 21 2003, 22:10
- - john33   The theory does work in practice, although I don...   Jun 21 2003, 22:12
- - M   Hmmm... I'll hazard a simple guess and say ...   Jun 21 2003, 22:13
- - Jebus   Here are the exciting results: "Mer De Noms...   Jun 21 2003, 22:20
- - HansHeijden   For mp3, it would be an idea if wavegain could pas...   Jun 21 2003, 22:22
- - Canar   QUOTE (Jebus @ Jun 21 2003 - 12:34 PM)Psychoa...   Jun 21 2003, 22:23
- - Jebus   QUOTE (HansHeijden @ Jun 21 2003 - 01:22 PM)F...   Jun 21 2003, 22:25
- - john33   QUOTE (HansHeijden @ Jun 21 2003 - 09:22 PM)F...   Jun 21 2003, 22:35
- - Jebus   QUOTE (john33 @ Jun 21 2003 - 01:35 PM)QUOTE ...   Jun 21 2003, 22:39
- - john33   QUOTE (Jebus @ Jun 21 2003 - 09:39 PM)QUOTE (...   Jun 22 2003, 00:12
- - Jebus   ah but i need to manually calculate scalefactor fr...   Jun 22 2003, 00:35
- - mrosscook   Jebus, In a problem like yours it can help to co...   Jun 22 2003, 03:48
- - westgroveg   The question of whether wavgain artifacts are perc...   Jun 22 2003, 04:03
- - Jebus   Well as it stands, I have just ripped a couple of ...   Jun 22 2003, 04:23
- - mrosscook   Westgroveq, I think it might be better to say th...   Jun 22 2003, 04:35
- - Canar   QUOTE (Jebus @ Jun 21 2003 - 07:23 PM)As reco...   Jun 22 2003, 05:14
- - Jebus   QUOTE (Canar @ Jun 21 2003 - 08:14 PM)QUOTE (...   Jun 22 2003, 05:33
- - Jebus   QUOTE (mrosscook @ Jun 21 2003 - 07:35 PM)Jeb...   Jun 22 2003, 05:37
- - indybrett   Geez... Does this mean I have to re-encode everyt...   Jun 22 2003, 06:29
- - Garf   QUOTE (Jebus @ Jun 22 2003 - 06:37 AM)(doesn...   Jun 22 2003, 08:12
- - tigre   - to avoid loss due to applying wavegain (= loweri...   Jun 22 2003, 08:16
- - Hanky   It does not surprise me that files get lower bitra...   Jun 22 2003, 11:11
- - HansHeijden   --scale is applied to float values so the lower vo...   Jun 22 2003, 11:53
- - john33   When applying the gain, WaveGain converts the inpu...   Jun 22 2003, 12:06
- - john33   QUOTE (Jebus @ Jun 21 2003 - 11:35 PM)ah but ...   Jun 22 2003, 12:45
- - M   QUOTE (john33 @ Jun 22 2003 - 06:45 AM)I just...   Jun 22 2003, 12:58
- - de Mon   May be I misunderstood something... If we are goin...   Jun 22 2003, 14:17
- - Xenno   Any non-zero value will be raised by the same amou...   Jun 22 2003, 14:39
- - mrosscook   Tigre, Hanky, HansHeijden, and John33, I don...   Jun 22 2003, 14:44
- - Hanky   After using the search function and finally realiz...   Jun 22 2003, 17:57
- - Jebus   QUOTE (john33 @ Jun 22 2003 - 03:45 AM)QUOTE ...   Jun 22 2003, 19:19
- - ibm2080   QUOTE (mrosscook @ Jun 22 2003 - 05:44 AM)Tig...   Jun 22 2003, 20:27
- - Jebus   The thing is, when you MP3gain a file down a few d...   Jun 22 2003, 20:56
- - mmortal03   QUOTE (Jebus @ Jun 22 2003 - 12:19 PM)4) sign...   Jun 22 2003, 21:08
- - Jebus   I personally can't ABX a difference, but my ea...   Jun 22 2003, 21:58
- - _Shorty   don't certain portions of the mp3 encoding pro...   Jun 23 2003, 10:10
- - 2Bdecided   In most of this thread, the real problem is only j...   Jun 23 2003, 10:57
- - john33   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 23 2003 - 09:57 AM)Joh...   Jun 23 2003, 11:10
- - ibm2080   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 23 2003 - 01:57 AM)The...   Jun 23 2003, 13:14
- - dev0   Let's just take a look at the current possibil...   Jun 23 2003, 14:45
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (dev0 @ Jun 23 2003 - 01:45 PM)1. Origi...   Jun 23 2003, 15:33
- - john33   These are the results from using one track only. I...   Jun 23 2003, 16:59
- - dev0   Could you please decode the test files and verify ...   Jun 23 2003, 17:07
- - tigre   QUOTE (dev0 @ Jun 23 2003 - 08:07 AM)Could yo...   Jun 23 2003, 17:22
- - mrosscook   In light of 2Bdecided's comments about the pos...   Jun 23 2003, 17:32
- - Jebus   Lets forget the actual wavegaining, as 2bdecided s...   Jun 23 2003, 18:54
- - M   From a simple numeric comparison (considering the ...   Jun 24 2003, 02:53
- - 2Bdecided   If Dibrom, JohnV, Gabriel etc etc are reading this...   Jun 24 2003, 11:52
- - john33   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 24 2003 - 10:52 AM)Fro...   Jun 24 2003, 12:16
- - 2Bdecided   Thanks john. That much I'd assumed. It's h...   Jun 24 2003, 14:58
- - ff123   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jun 24 2003 - 05:58 AM)Tha...   Jun 24 2003, 16:01
- - Garf   Vorbis should give identical results if scale is a...   Jun 24 2003, 16:13
- - ErikS   QUOTE (Garf @ Jun 24 2003 - 04:13 PM)Vorbis s...   Jun 24 2003, 17:15
- - /\/ephaestous   Vorbis test: CODEX:\Burn\TEST>di...   Jun 24 2003, 19:20
- - Garf   Does wavgain dither? Edit: the SCF clipping makes...   Jun 24 2003, 19:30
- - Jebus   I uploaded a bunch of samples for ABX testing on t...   Jun 24 2003, 20:04
- - sony666   My humble experiences with this topic: http://www....   Jun 24 2003, 20:20
- - john33   QUOTE (Garf @ Jun 24 2003 - 06:30 PM)Does wav...   Jun 24 2003, 20:52
- - Jebus   QUOTE (sony666 @ Jun 24 2003 - 11:20 AM)My hu...   Jun 24 2003, 21:33
- - ErikS   QUOTE (sony666 @ Jun 24 2003 - 08:20 PM)My hu...   Jun 24 2003, 21:46
- - AstralStorm   Does the -Y --scale version sound worse than --sca...   Jun 24 2003, 21:48
- - ff123   I believe the issue was adjusting the ath curve ba...   Jun 24 2003, 21:55
- - Jebus   ff123 That's a 40kbps change in total, 39kbps ...   Jun 24 2003, 22:40
- - /\/ephaestous   QUOTE (john33 @ Jun 24 2003 - 02:52 PM)QUOTE ...   Jun 25 2003, 01:56
- - ErikS   QUOTE (ff123 @ Jun 24 2003 - 09:55 PM)I belie...   Jun 25 2003, 06:08
- - mmortal03   I guess we just need to roll out some ABX tests. ...   Jun 25 2003, 10:27
- - 2Bdecided   Some answers (but not enough!)... ErikS, Re...   Jun 25 2003, 10:42
- - DickD   Finally reached the end of this thread (to date), ...   Jun 25 2003, 15:10
- - Jebus   Okay, so in summary we need people with good ears ...   Jun 25 2003, 19:12
- - Gabriel   My opinion is that if you intend to always play yo...   Jun 28 2003, 12:39
- - Garf   If it is purely an sfb21 problem, why does Vorbis ...   Jun 28 2003, 13:05
- - Garf   QUOTE (ErikS @ Jun 24 2003 - 10:46 PM)But how...   Jun 28 2003, 13:07
- - _Shorty   QUOTE (Gabriel @ Jun 28 2003 - 04:39 AM)It se...   Jun 29 2003, 03:20
- - Jebus   Thank you for your response Gabriel. I had already...   Jun 29 2003, 07:55
- - DickD   Thanks for the clarification about how the adaptiv...   Jul 1 2003, 16:36
- - mmortal03   I think it would be very worthwhile.   Jul 2 2003, 07:21
- - 2Bdecided   DickD, Life is very difficult if you have ideas, ...   Jul 2 2003, 11:12
- - john33   Give me a couple of days, or so, and I'll post...   Jul 2 2003, 11:46
- - RaWShadow   After using WaveGain, monkeys audio compress the w...   Jul 2 2003, 12:42
- - Jebus   QUOTE (RaWShadow @ Jul 2 2003 - 03:42 AM)Afte...   Jul 2 2003, 19:58
- - _Shorty   rawshadow, well, a 16bit per sample file can only ...   Jul 3 2003, 03:00
- - Jebus   QUOTE (_Shorty @ Jul 2 2003 - 06:00 PM)In oth...   Jul 3 2003, 03:50
- - Differenciam   Damn, this is a good idea.. I'm surprised no o...   Jul 3 2003, 04:08
- - mmortal03   QUOTE (john33 @ Jul 2 2003 - 04:46 AM)Give me...   Jul 3 2003, 09:58
- - flloyd   QUOTE (Differenciam @ Jul 2 2003 - 11:08 PM)D...   Jul 3 2003, 16:04
- - Jebus   QUOTE (flloyd @ Jul 3 2003 - 07:04 AM)QUOTE (...   Jul 3 2003, 17:13
- - DickD   QUOTE (john33 @ Jul 2 2003 - 11:46 AM)Give me...   Jul 3 2003, 18:11
- - john33   QUOTE (DickD @ Jul 3 2003 - 05:11 PM)@John33,...   Jul 3 2003, 18:23
- - DickD   QUOTE (john33 @ Jul 3 2003 - 06:23 PM)Yes, it...   Jul 3 2003, 19:17
- - john33   @DickD: I haven't forgotten this!!...   Jul 7 2003, 21:23
- - Mike Giacomelli   Any word? A search turned up this topic by accide...   Jul 15 2003, 04:54
- - john33   Sorry, I still intend doing this, but the weather ...   Jul 15 2003, 15:46
- - Mike Giacomelli   Thanks John. Also, I wouldn't mind the UK too...   Jul 15 2003, 23:07
- - john33   QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Jul 15 2003, 10:07 P...   Jul 16 2003, 12:42
- - mmortal03   How can one compare our portable's volume outp...   Jul 17 2003, 09:57
- - DickD   QUOTE (mmortal03 @ Jul 17 2003, 09:57 AM)How ...   Jul 17 2003, 17:19
- - mmortal03   What I am getting at is the situation about losing...   Jul 18 2003, 09:07
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