Tainted Love: Imo Most Demanding Track (vbr Fails) Options

[tonynash]

Tainted Love (Marylin Manson version ist the most demanding track I have encountered so far, well, basically the very beginning of the song, i must admit.
There are 2 very high tone sweeps, which are extremly hard to be encoded correctly.

I am using relatively cheap, big headphones (10€) and a Creative SoundBlaster Live (put high frequencies to max, using Creative Mixer's standard equalizer), WinAmp for playback

All VBR presets (some of them average up to ~268kbps) of my front-end
RazorLame1.1.5 (Lame 3.93.1) produce garbage.

Even the highly acclaimed -r3mix (averaged at about 220kbps), using the last
RazorLame-Pack version from www.r3mix.net (RIP), produced tiny audible errors.

I can clearly pick out artifacts up to 192kbps CBR (Lame 3.93.1)
Transpareny sets in at 224kbps CBR (Lame 3.93.1)
Did all listening-tests blindfolded, of course :-)

Since I definitely do NOT have the Best Heaphones
it's pretty save to say that VBR is still far from perfect.

I go for 224kbps CBR in the future.

PS: Has anybody else tested this Track, maybe with other encoders?

tonynash

[ErikS]

Can you (or anybody else) share some seconds of the problematic part losslessly compressed to us who don't have this CD?

[askoff]

Maybay you should aim your frequencyresponse much more flatter. It can damage your ears if you listen to music with werry high boosted frequencies. With decent frequencyresponse the encoding artifacts won't be easy to hear.

[dev0]

Hydrogen Audio Forum Rules

[tonynash]

@askoff
I only boost them high frequencies for mp3 enc. testing. Of course, with normal settings it would be WAY harder to hear artifacts. And That's exactly the reason i do that.


@ErikS
Since i don't have any webspace, i'd have to mail the uncompressed wav data (about 6 Secs)... (hopefully THAT's not illegal)
I could do that, as soon as I am at home (still at work ;-)



tonynash

This post has been edited by tonynash: Jul 4 2003, 13:00

[Kblood]

"r3mix" highly acclaimed?!?!?!

224 CBR?

Since you are using Lame 3.93.1, use "--preset standard", which is VBR "like it oughtta be done", and tell us what you think...

Oh, and using the High Frequency settings of the Equalizer so high is clearly not normal, so don't expect Lame to consider some of the content there to be audible...

VBR in Lame still far from perfect... Simply a LIE.

By the way, if you plan to go on giving this kind of "results"/flames/unfounded claims, you will not be very respected here. If you want your opinion to be taken seriously, take the seconds of the clip you are talking about, compress them losslessly, and make them available so everybody else can test and comment.

Otherwise, well... you will not like it here

PS: At least use Zip on it Better options for lossless compression are FLAC, Monkey's Audio (APE), WavPack...

This post has been edited by Kblood: Jul 4 2003, 13:01

[RaWShadow]

Why are you using Lame 3.93.1 with the alt-presets and not Lame 3.90.3 ??
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....wtopic=478&st=0

This post has been edited by RaWShadow: Jul 4 2003, 13:09

[tonynash]

@Kblood
when i can distinguish the orignal from the (Razor)Lame VBR presets,
it's NOT perfect for me, that's why i stated the IMO. It's NOT supposed to be
a flaming thread.

I use ape for lossless compression, yet have no webspace

Will try '--preset standard' and share my opinions :-)

@RaWShadow
Didn't know about the tread you mentioned, just use the latest version.
(Looked good to me in the lame's history index)

[n68]

Gday..

@tonynash..
first of all.. this track is probably the worst M.M
i ever heard.. if you are capable.. re-master it...

2. gain the file BEFORE encode..

3. don`t use 3.90.1..

4. this track is so dissorted.. use vbr..

helpfull me

[Kblood]

Sorry for my previous post, I am in a not very good mood today...

Regarding the RazorLame presets, well, RazorLame is the frontend, Lame the encoder itself. RazorLame presets, specially if obtained from r3mix, are probably only using command-line switches.
"--alt-preset standard" or "--preset standard" (equivalent if you use Lame 3.93.1) use tweaks that are not available through command-line, and they are Lame, and not RazorLame, presets.

Using 3.93.1 or 3.90.3 should make no audible difference, even though this has not been 100% verified, it seems to be the case so far... AFAIK.

Also, perhaps it would be interesting to see what happens if you use "--alt-preset standard -Y"... (ignore the warning message if you see it when using RazorLame, it's an outdated message that no longer applies)

Have fun testing.

[RaWShadow]

There is no harm in trying the recommended 3.90.3 with --alt-preset standard

[Lev]

All VBR presets (some of them average up to ~268kbps) of my front-end
RazorLame1.1.5 (Lame 3.93.1) produce garbage.

Do they use the alt-presets or not?

[tonynash]

@Lev
i have used these presets:

VBR 09 HiFi.rlo -b 112 -m j -h -V 2 -B 320 --lowpass 18 --lowpass-width 0.9
VBR 10 CD.rlo -b 128 -m s -h -V 1 -B 320
VBR 11 Studio.rlo -b 160 -m s -V 0 -B 320

they all sound crappy to me, listening to the tone sweeps

This post has been edited by tonynash: Jul 4 2003, 14:38

[ErikS]

@Lev
i have used these presets:

VBR 09 HiFi.rlo  -b 112 -m j -h -V 2 -B 320 --lowpass 18 --lowpass-width 0.9
VBR 10 CD.rlo      -b 128 -m s -h -V 1 -B 320
VBR 11 Studio.rlo  -b 160 -m s -V 0 -B 320

they all sound crappy to me, listening to the tone sweeps

Ahh.. that could be the reason.. These presets should really be remapped to the alternative presets by dibrom. Try --preset standard instead, and you will probably get a much better sounding mp3.

Still, please send me the wav file via mail to d99papa@dtek.chalmers.se and I will put it up on the web for others to download.

This post has been edited by ErikS: Jul 4 2003, 14:48

[NumLOCK]

@Lev
i have used these presets:

VBR 09 HiFi.rlo    -b 112 -m j -h -V 2 -B 320 --lowpass 18 --lowpass-width 0.9
VBR 10 CD.rlo      -b 128 -m s -h -V 1 -B 320
VBR 11 Studio.rlo  -b 160 -m s -V 0 -B 320

they all sound crappy to me, listening to the tone sweeps

- If you want to focus on high frequencies, you must equalize the song BEFORE encoding, not AFTER.

- Use --alt-preset standard for vbr encoding.

[n68]

Ciao...


am also in the prosses to tune this track..
(but i work with a wav..)

when it comes to lame, distortion and aps-ape..
tuning.. well. to start with.. i gained the file with 6limiter &
heavy noise shaping.. to start with.
am always start experimenting with the -k..
(am shure am using other headphones than you..)
but the aps (lowpass @ 19900) seem to deal with the
distorted guitar.. but still you got the
awefull distorted deep bass drum..
(around 1min.)
and i doubt a simple highpass filter.. do the trick..
without ruin the sound image..

[ErikS]

the file is available for download here: http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~d99papa/files/tainted.ape

[tonynash]

@n68
wow, you seem to work pretty hard on that track (besides, Tainted Love ain't that bad )
I'll try --alt-preset standard tonight

[ErikS]

A quick test with aps on this track doesn't show any obvious flaws. But that's done with a lot of traffic noise through my window... Will try again later.

[boojum]

An observation for all you guys with Golden Ears who can catch those tiny, teeny artifacts: no matter how good the file format, no matter how good the computer/stereo/speakers/headphones it will always sound like a recording. There is no way out of that one. We can get close to the original, and quite often fool lots of people, but we are chasing diminishing returns here. My "good" stereo runs ~1300 watts a channel, plays through super good six foot high electrostatic speakers (Sound Lab Prisitines) and despite all the money and power, it still sounds like it is a recording. Now the sound is great and can quite easily lull you into thinking it is not "canned" but never completely and forever.

While these endless arguments about MP3 compression vs APE and others is interesting, further the art and science of audio and teache us all a lot it quite often verges on the Medieval question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Just my 2¢ worth; two one-hundreths of a Euro for you folks in Europe.

B)

[robert]

Just my 2¢ worth; two one-hundreths of a Euro for you folks in Europe.

B)

well, we call "two one-hundreths of an Euro" 2¢ here in Europe

[ErikS]

Good point there. That it is really only a tiny bit of all the audioinformation that goes down through the microphone and on the recording media. But thanks to the audio engineers I think it still sounds very good. Much better than at any concert I've been to.

[tonynash]

I can't believe it, the --alt-preset standard settings are absolutely superior to the rest. You were right all along.

Instead of messing around with RazorLame VBR presets and the r3mix, i should have read your faq first.
Still can't believe that the '--alt-preset standard -Y (transparent, av. 177kbps)' settings did so incredibely well at THIS bitrate. I don't know yet how it deals with other tricky audio-constellations, but it handles my 'high tone sweep' issue professionally.

Thanks a lot for your help !


I have listed my test-results:
(based upon MY listening-experience, so think of a big IMO right here :-)

Encoder: Razorlame 1.1.5 / lame 3.93.1
Track: Marilyn Manson - Tainted Love (Track 16 - Album:The Golden Age Of Grotesque)
ripped with Nero 5.0.2.9
Playback: Winamp 2.65 (yeah, it's outdated :-)
concentrating on 2 high tone sweeps at the very beginning (hope i described it correctly :-)


Tested the following VBR presets:

r3mix.net:
Archive Quality VBR (r3mix.net).rlo (bad++,I'd say;av. 209kbps) --r3mix


presets:

VBR 09 HiFi.rlo (sounds very bad; av. 203kbps) -b 112 -m j -h -V 2 -B 320 --lowpass 18 --lowpass-width 0.9

VBR 10 CD.rlo (sounds very bad; av. 259kbps) -b 128 -m s -h -V 1 -B 320

VBR 11 Studio.rlo (sounds bad; av. 278kbps) -b 160 -m s -V 0 -B 320


mp3-tech.org:

Transparency.rlo (sounds bad; av. 232kbps) -b 32 -m j -V 1 -B 320 --lowpass 19.5 -q 2

Archival quality.rlo (transparent; av. 268kbps) -b 32 -m s --abr 256 -B 320 -q 2 -d


Your suggestions:

--alt-preset standard (transparent; av. 222kbps)

--alt-preset standard -Y (transparent, av. 177kbps)



Tested the following CBR levels:

192kbps CBR (almost transparent) -b 192 -m s

224kbps CBR (transparent) -b 224 -m s

[RaWShadow]

always use the alt-presets they are the best

[Kblood]

If you ever need CBR 192 for anything, try
--alt-preset cbr 192

It should sound also better than what you have there.

Nevertheless, I'm glad you have "seen the light"