IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Subjective vs Objective opinions, post your favourite links / experiences
2Bdecided
post Jul 18 2003, 11:13
Post #1


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 4945
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



We're an objectivist audio community here. We don't necesarily believe that everything can be measured (psychoacoustic codecs prevent that anyway), but we do believe that subective opinions should be backed up by rigorous tests, intended to remove all possible bias from human subjective judgements and opinions.

I think this is a good thing. I read the following from Dibrom in a recently locked thread:

QUOTE
If we simply let people go around making claims without challenging them, we would be no further than the --r3mix days, and likely much worse even given the larger number of people that participate in these forums.

You seem to focus only on the negative aspect here (I think I know why....) and completely disregard the benefit that has been wrought by this attitude. Yes, some people might get scared off in the process, but overall, this attitude is more helpful than harmful -- much more so in fact. There have been numerous cases were real problems have been even more emphasized and brought to bear through the increased scrutiny these types of situations bring about.


I very much agree with this.

Look at the opposite case: look at most Hi-Fi magazines. They advice people on buying $1000s of equipment (not just choosing between free audio codecs!), yet their advice is usually unscientific. The listening is done sighted, and without any control conditions. Objective measurements are presented as being inferior and/or removed from what people actually hear. Manufactuers claims are repeated verbatim. Opinions are stated as fact, and little is ever questioned.

Most significantly, there is no sense in which the influence of the magazine is used to improve the state of the art. They simply comment, often in a virtually meaningless, marketing driven manner, on products which they decide to review. Rather than helping people to buy better Hi-Fi, and leading the manufactuers to build better Hi-Fi, they do the opposite: People are confused as to what really does sound better, and often buy overpriced junk; while manufactuers spend less time (and money) improving the sound of their equipment, and more time following the latest trend or marketing gimmic. The result is that it's all too easy to spend $20,000 on a Hi-Fi which sounds absolutely bloody awful!

The equivalent here would be to spend weeks encoding your CD collection using a command line and/or encoder that was pretty poor compared to the best that's been acheived, and is available for free. But we don't allow that. We don't let people claim that X is better than Y, when it isn't. We don't let people claim that Z has magical properties. We do testing, and we try to move forward. And that is a good thing.

The latest thread with Xerophase was a good thread IMO. Maybe it took two pages to express something that we should have said to him in one posting - but we were interested, he was interested, and we've got a useful result. We've learned something. By following the rulse of the forum. And by being polite and encouraging him to join in with how we do things here.

There's a lot in the "tone" of how you do something. Whether we accept unsubstantiated claims is not up for debate - we do not. But the manner in which you coax these people into doing things the right way is very important.

We've got to allow people who don't know any better (and sometimes even those of us who do!) to make unsubstantiated claims at first, so that other members can point out that they're unsubstantiated, and suggest a fair way of testing them. This doesn't mean we accept unsubstantiated claims as truth, but it does mean that people sometimes need to be allowed to post them as a starting point for discussion and investigation. "I think X" is an unsubstantiated claim, but it's OK if it leads on to "How can I test if it's true?"

We are an objectivist audio community.

If you have any good objectivist/subjectivist links, links showing the importance of evidence, proof, and blind testing against feelings and opinions, or the opposite side of the argument, feel free to post them.

Cheers,
David.

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm

http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Axon
post Mar 23 2009, 02:29
Post #2





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 1984
Joined: 4-January 04
From: Austin, TX
Member No.: 10933



You know, that's really funny - I actually started off lurking in the DIY corner of HeadCase, and then too migrated to Head-Fi before taking permanent residence here. I bought in to the whole subjective headphone amp thing, kit and kaboodle, before selling out piecemeal. (.. although not without realizing that I really should replace my $300 headphone amp with another DIY jobbie one of these days, because of some audible issues!)

I kind of wonder if this is some kind of trend, with Head-Fi basically feeding HydrogenAudio - kind of like how Ayn Rand books tend to feed libertarianism (though the two things are very substantially different). The headphone amp market in particular is.... very curious. It's the cheapest way for the average joe to buy in to "the good life" of high fidelity - and so it's also the cheapest way for said joe to dismiss it as mostly claptrap. All jokes about Patrick82 besides, you see far, far more pro-DBT statements on Head-Fi that on virtually all other audio forums save here.

I hypothesize (and I'm not sure I can back this up) that the relative inexpense of the headphone field allows headphone people to be generally more open to DBT techniques, insofar as they have less emotional investment in their monetary investments in audio. If true, this could have all sorts of deep implications. For one, it is in our best interests to ensure that low end gear is as high a quality as possible - and it is in the high-end world's best interest to denigrate it and ensure it is as poor as possible. (Read what you will into the relative lack of interest spent on low end gear in many mags, the pathetic quality of low-end turntables sold by high-end manufacturers, etc.) It means that, insofar as the audio world has shifted over to be more headphone-centric, pro-DBT sentiment increases - but if the market swings to the other direction, towards speakers, it may decrease.

---

Anyways, to actually respond to the OP, I sincerely believe most of the good arguments for blind testing of audio are exclusively found somewhere on the archives of this site.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- 2Bdecided   Subjective vs Objective opinions   Jul 18 2003, 11:13
- - fewtch   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 18 2003, 03:13 AM)We a...   Jul 18 2003, 11:45
- - KikeG   Description and discussion at rec.audio.high-end o...   Jul 18 2003, 11:51
- - KikeG   About the objective vs. subjective issue... ABX te...   Jul 18 2003, 12:00
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (fewtch @ Jul 18 2003, 10:45 AM)QUOTE (...   Jul 18 2003, 12:05
- - fewtch   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 18 2003, 04:05 AM)QUOT...   Jul 18 2003, 12:16
- - 2Bdecided   KikeG beat me to it. Every time I think about th...   Jul 18 2003, 12:23
- - fewtch   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 18 2003, 04:23 AM)Kike...   Jul 18 2003, 12:35
- - Gabriel   QUOTE The problem is, I'd be too honest. I...   Jul 18 2003, 13:30
- - 2Bdecided   It's funny - we tell "hi-end" people...   Jul 18 2003, 13:54
- - fewtch   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 18 2003, 05:54 AM)It...   Jul 18 2003, 14:02
- - marx   Hi everyone I just joined up and I apologise for t...   Oct 21 2008, 21:34
|- - Soap   Yes, you can rest assured every single thing I rea...   Oct 21 2008, 22:01
|- - Canar   I remember fondly the day I found Hydrogenaudio. S...   Oct 22 2008, 02:10
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE Yes, you can rest assured every single thing...   Oct 22 2008, 00:36
- - Slipstreem   Welcome aboard, marx. I think you've come to t...   Oct 22 2008, 01:48
- - Light-Fire   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 18 2003, 05:13) We...   Oct 22 2008, 02:26
- - Axon   Knowledge of HA has risen considerably in the audi...   Oct 22 2008, 03:17
|- - Soap   QUOTE (Axon @ Oct 21 2008, 22:17) In othe...   Oct 22 2008, 04:18
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Oct 21 2008, 22:17) Knowled...   Oct 22 2008, 07:31
- - marx   Thanks Guys it's nice to know that I'm not...   Oct 22 2008, 05:35
- - sld   I joined HA when I was in high school and never re...   Oct 22 2008, 05:42
- - MichaelW   Sorry if this is a bit of a hobby-horse, but a sim...   Oct 22 2008, 07:03
|- - marx   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Oct 22 2008, 19:03) Hi ...   Oct 22 2008, 08:41
- - HotshotGG   QUOTE There's actually a modest, steady level ...   Oct 22 2008, 07:53
|- - pisymbol   QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Oct 22 2008, 02:53) QU...   Mar 22 2009, 20:56
|- - odigg   I migrated here from Head-Fi. Even if you are a a...   Mar 23 2009, 00:21
|- - pisymbol   QUOTE (odigg @ Mar 22 2009, 19:21) I migr...   Mar 23 2009, 02:30
|- - Axon   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Mar 22 2009, 20:30) Wha...   Mar 23 2009, 02:44
- - botface   @MichealW, Thanks for your insight...   Oct 22 2008, 09:19
- - tom_vienna_at   Since we are humans, everything is subjective... w...   Oct 22 2008, 09:56
|- - Soap   QUOTE (tom_vienna_at @ Oct 22 2008, 04:56...   Oct 22 2008, 17:31
- - MichaelW   My understanding is that, in the audio context, ...   Oct 22 2008, 12:06
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Oct 22 2008, 07:06) My ...   Oct 22 2008, 17:09
||- - MichaelW   QUOTE (krabapple @ Oct 23 2008, 05:09) SN...   Oct 22 2008, 22:06
|- - marx   QUOTE (MichaelW @ Oct 23 2008, 00:06) Or ...   Oct 22 2008, 18:54
- - Tahnru   A quick add: Marx has split out a new thread for ...   Oct 22 2008, 19:25
- - MichaelW   And, of course, some people would prefer a torn ca...   Mar 23 2009, 01:27
- - Axon   You know, that's really funny - I actually sta...   Mar 23 2009, 02:29
|- - pisymbol   QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 22 2009, 21:29) All jok...   Mar 23 2009, 02:39
||- - Axon   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Mar 22 2009, 20:39) 2) ...   Mar 23 2009, 03:00
|||- - odigg   I've gone to a Headphone meet. What is great ...   Mar 23 2009, 15:57
||- - odigg   QUOTE (pisymbol @ Mar 22 2009, 21:39) 3) ...   Mar 23 2009, 16:04
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 22 2009, 21:29) It mean...   Mar 23 2009, 15:46
|- - odigg   QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 22 2009, 21:29) I kind ...   Mar 26 2009, 14:27
- - FasterThanEver   head-fi has been mentioned as a place where subjec...   Mar 23 2009, 19:13
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (FasterThanEver @ Mar 23 2009, 14:1...   Mar 24 2009, 20:37
|- - shenzi   I've just joined here, in part as a refuge fro...   Mar 24 2009, 20:40
- - pdq   Hello shenzi, and welcome. I'm not sure what ...   Mar 24 2009, 21:30
|- - shenzi   QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 24 2009, 20:30) Hello sh...   Mar 25 2009, 11:45
- - Ashley James   Bill said: "Computeraudiophile.com has a thre...   Mar 24 2009, 21:34
|- - FasterThanEver   QUOTE (Ashley James @ Mar 24 2009, 13:34)...   Mar 24 2009, 23:42
- - Axon   Welcome all. We discussed the name thing with HA ...   Mar 24 2009, 21:52
- - greynol   QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 13:52) Chris u...   Mar 24 2009, 22:23
|- - Axon   QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 24 2009, 16:23) QUOT...   Mar 24 2009, 23:59
|- - Ashley James   QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 23:59) QUOTE (...   Mar 25 2009, 12:02
||- - odigg   QUOTE (Ashley James @ Mar 25 2009, 07:02)...   Apr 6 2009, 02:06
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 17:59) I'm...   Mar 25 2009, 13:40
||- - WUXGA   I found that hilarious as well.   Mar 25 2009, 16:14
|- - hybris   QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 23:59) Ah, yes...   Mar 27 2009, 10:42
- - tfarney   Hi folks. Another refugee from Computer Audiophile...   Mar 26 2009, 10:48
- - tfarney   QUOTE Audioengr in many ways shows the dangers of ...   Mar 26 2009, 16:40
|- - Ashley James   He certainly believes in himself and I think it is...   Mar 26 2009, 19:36
|- - tfarney   QUOTE (Ashley James @ Mar 26 2009, 14:36)...   Mar 27 2009, 13:29
|- - Kees de Visser   QUOTE (Ashley James @ Mar 26 2009, 19:36)...   Mar 27 2009, 15:21
- - pdq   I believe someone already posted here the results ...   Mar 27 2009, 15:17
- - shakey_snake   I've been drug into a fun argument about this ...   Mar 27 2009, 17:21
- - pdq   So how did Joel become a Supervisor at neowin.net ...   Mar 27 2009, 18:16
- - shakey_snake   Not for his audio skills, obviously.   Mar 28 2009, 04:58
- - shenzi   I believe James Randi has got involved in a cable ...   Mar 28 2009, 13:50
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (shenzi @ Mar 28 2009, 08:50) I bel...   Mar 29 2009, 11:51
- - krabapple   This CD player thread appears to be a classic rec...   Mar 31 2009, 22:00
|- - pdq   QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 31 2009, 17:00) Th...   Mar 31 2009, 22:16
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE Differences HEARD that are huge cannot possi...   Apr 1 2009, 15:28
|- - krabapple   QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 1 2009, 10:28) QUO...   Apr 1 2009, 15:40
|- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 1 2009, 14:40) QUO...   Apr 1 2009, 16:53
|- - krabapple   The placebo effect seems to be most commonly effe...   Apr 1 2009, 17:06
- - pdq   I believe it has been shown, however, that people ...   Apr 1 2009, 16:46
|- - odigg   QUOTE (pdq @ Apr 1 2009, 11:46) I believe...   Apr 1 2009, 17:16
- - Axon   There isn't anything wrong with subjective exp...   Apr 1 2009, 18:10
|- - Ashley James   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 1 2009, 18:10) There is...   Apr 2 2009, 11:38
||- - odigg   QUOTE (Ashley James @ Apr 2 2009, 06:38) ...   Apr 2 2009, 15:10
|- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 1 2009, 13:10) Quite si...   Apr 3 2009, 20:27
|- - Axon   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2009, 14...   Apr 3 2009, 20:40
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 3 2009, 15:40) QUOTE (A...   Apr 6 2009, 01:26
||- - Axon   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 5 2009, 19...   Apr 6 2009, 03:39
||- - Arnold B. Krueger   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 5 2009, 22:39) QUOTE (A...   Apr 7 2009, 01:58
||- - rpp3po   Hey, that's with the inventor of MLP - the onl...   Apr 7 2009, 03:09
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 3 2009, 15...   Apr 3 2009, 20:40
- - Dracaena   I don't see what all the fuss is about. If peo...   Apr 3 2009, 02:32
|- - Axon   QUOTE (Dracaena @ Apr 2 2009, 20:32) I do...   Apr 3 2009, 03:27
||- - FasterThanEver   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 2 2009, 19:27) Look at ...   Apr 3 2009, 07:12
||- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 3 2009, 02:27) Quite si...   Apr 3 2009, 10:31
|- - odigg   QUOTE (Dracaena @ Apr 2 2009, 21:32) It i...   Apr 3 2009, 17:57
- - pdq   For the people who spent a fortune and are happy w...   Apr 3 2009, 02:55
- - Dracaena   Sure, I agree with that 100% pdq I just don't ...   Apr 3 2009, 03:18
- - pdq   There are some good scenes involving Hi-Fi sales i...   Apr 3 2009, 19:05
- - shenzi   The digital camera comparison is highly valid. Aud...   Apr 5 2009, 15:35
- - Axon   QUOTE (shenzi @ Apr 5 2009, 09:35) The di...   Apr 6 2009, 02:55
- - krabapple   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 5 2009, 21:55) QUOTE (s...   Apr 6 2009, 04:12
2 Pages V   1 2 >


Closed TopicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th April 2014 - 15:01