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Vorbis development, status & patent issues, PART 2 - Technical discussion
Gabriel
post Sep 25 2003, 14:37
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Moderator comment
Currently the Vorbis patent issue covers these threads:
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 1 - NON-technical discussion
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 2 - Technical discussion (This thread)
/Moderator comment

By looking at this:
http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis-dev/20...2/index.html#83
it seems that Xiph (at least in 2000) was open to the idea of disclosing the patent research.
Is this position changed now, or does it still stand?
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petracci
post Sep 26 2003, 08:59
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QUOTE
I took a deeper look at the patent - It seems that this patent does not talk about switching criteria at all - they just state 'signal amplitude change' as a condition for switching to the short blocks, which is met in every codec, regardless of the actual switching method - otherwise there would be no point in window switching at all (if energy level is the same).


I think this patent is closely related (or follows from) Edler's article "Codierung von Audiosignalen mit überlappender Transformation und adaptiven Fensterfunktionen"

In that article, I see 3 innovations. First, the use of different window lengths for an overlapping transform. Then, the method of creating transition windows. And last, the steering mechanism for the adaptation of the window length. In the article, the steering mechanism is clearly based on time-domain changes in signal amplitude.

For the patent, they probably tried to incorporate as many options for switching as they could get away with.

QUOTE
Window switching criteria can be either time-domain energy diff, freq domain energy diff (vorbis is using this, right?), perceptual entropy change (like MP3/AAC) or LPC predction error (Twin VQ, for example) - but I think MP3 and AAC and TwinVQ reference this patent as relevant, and it is in patent portfolio, and they do not use strict "signal amplitude change" in time domain as someone would initially think.  No matter how the blocks are compared (time E, freq E, PE (THR/E), or LPC prediction error),  window switch is always a result of signal amplitude change IMHO.


In the examples you give (so basically all current standards ) I can agree with your last statement.

However, the example I gave previously where you adapt the window lengths based on the actual coding results is different IMO.

E.g. incorporating the rate in the switching selection could lead to situations where you do switch when a high rate is available, but do not switch when a low rate is available, even if signal amplitude change tells you that you should switch. And although those methods might be computationally complex, I do see these as a next step in future codecs.
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- Gabriel   Vorbis development, status & patent issues   Sep 25 2003, 14:37
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 08:12 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 14:43
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Fair enough, let's start a scientific di...   Sep 25 2003, 14:53
- - Ivan Dimkovic   One more thing - the claims are not related to any...   Sep 25 2003, 14:59
- - menno   Claim 1 from patent US5214742: QUOTE 1. In a metho...   Sep 25 2003, 15:20
- - menno   1.3. High-level Decode Process It seems that the ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:41
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, so we have a pretty clear basis for a serious ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:43
- - c_haese   I've already said everything I'm qualified...   Sep 25 2003, 16:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Well, at least there is a nice bunch of factual da...   Sep 25 2003, 16:14
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:36 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 16:50
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Claim 1 does not claim the "windowing/o...   Sep 25 2003, 16:56
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:56 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE First of all, do you also think that claim 1...   Sep 25 2003, 17:22
- - petracci   Yes, Claim 4 is not easy to avoid. Claim 6 points ...   Sep 25 2003, 17:34
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 11:22 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Wouldn't all claims have to apply to mak...   Sep 25 2003, 18:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (petracci @ Sep 25 2003, 11:34 AM)Yes, ...   Sep 25 2003, 23:31
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Sep 26 2003, 01:31 AM)QUOTE ...   Sep 26 2003, 00:23
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I took a deeper look at the patent - It seems that...   Sep 26 2003, 01:05
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the Claim 1...   Sep 26 2003, 01:13
- - ErikS   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 01:13 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 01:48
- - petracci   QUOTE I took a deeper look at the patent - It seem...   Sep 26 2003, 08:59
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE E.g. incorporating the rate in the switching...   Sep 26 2003, 09:05
- - petracci   QUOTE I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the C...   Sep 26 2003, 09:16
- - menno   Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that freque...   Sep 26 2003, 09:19
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE I can obviously not say that either of us is...   Sep 26 2003, 09:21
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:21 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:31
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think it was: QUOTE 5853 Michael J. Smithers,Br...   Sep 26 2003, 09:48
- - petracci   QUOTE Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that ...   Sep 26 2003, 09:49
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:48 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:57
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think we got into one very serous discussion rig...   Sep 26 2003, 10:04
- - petracci   QUOTE I think we got into one very serous discussi...   Sep 26 2003, 10:12
- - Ivan Dimkovic   http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/ffmp...=1.18...   Sep 26 2003, 10:38
- - petracci   QUOTE I dunno about the patent - will take some ti...   Sep 26 2003, 10:49
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so I am ...   Sep 26 2003, 10:53
- - petracci   QUOTE Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so...   Sep 26 2003, 11:01
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If they paid for licensing that patent on wi...   Sep 26 2003, 11:06
- - DSPguru   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 16:53 PM)...   Sep 26 2003, 11:15
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE recently, the official ffmpeg homepage had b...   Sep 26 2003, 11:21
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE e.g. if the complete technological details w...   Sep 26 2003, 12:01
- - petracci   QUOTE Ivan Dimkovic That is also interesting,...   Sep 26 2003, 12:18
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If a respected developer/researcher like Iva...   Sep 26 2003, 12:34
- - petracci   QUOTE You are right - I am not sure,  of cour...   Sep 26 2003, 14:18
- - danchr   QUOTE (DSPguru @ Sep 26 2003, 12:15 PM)QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2003, 11:09
- - c_haese   Okay, let's get back to the scientific problem...   Sep 29 2003, 22:17
- - menno   QUOTE (c_haese @ Sep 29 2003, 10:17 PM)After ...   Sep 30 2003, 14:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, for those with lmiited ability to read: Inste...   Sep 30 2003, 23:09
- - JohnV   Thread re-arranged. This thread is now only for te...   Oct 1 2003, 09:00
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 30 2003, 05:09 PM)...   Oct 1 2003, 23:26
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 1 2003, 10:26 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 2 2003, 09:21
- - JohnV   Ok, I asked Xiph's opinion about this specific...   Oct 5 2003, 23:38
- - Ivan Dimkovic   All in all, this is how I perceive the picture... ...   Oct 6 2003, 08:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 5 2003, 05:38 PM)Ok, I ask...   Oct 6 2003, 20:11
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 6 2003, 10:11 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 6 2003, 21:25
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 6 2003, 03:25 PM)Discussio...   Oct 7 2003, 03:17
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 05:17 AM)I said ...   Oct 7 2003, 04:54
- - jmvalin   QUOTE I was the only one who was talking about tha...   Oct 7 2003, 06:40
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 08:40 AM)OK, fir...   Oct 7 2003, 07:09
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Like I said - if somebody is so sure he avoided pa...   Oct 7 2003, 08:06
- - PatchWorKs   I don't want to be boring, but i have to say i...   Oct 7 2003, 08:34
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 12:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 08:43
- - sthayashi   JohnV, It seems to me that Monty's unofficial...   Oct 7 2003, 14:22
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 07:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 14:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 01:22 PM)JohnV...   Oct 7 2003, 15:02
- - rsilva   Let me try to "preach to the deaf" once ...   Oct 7 2003, 19:17
- - sthayashi   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Oct 7 2003, 06:02 AM)W...   Oct 7 2003, 20:41
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 03:41 PM)QUOTE...   Oct 7 2003, 21:20
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE "Vorbis is a hybrid transform domain ge...   Oct 7 2003, 23:00
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 07:41 PM) QUOT...   Oct 7 2003, 23:04
- - PatchWorKs   From XviD.org website: QUOTE European parliament ...   Oct 8 2003, 09:39
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I don't know what XVid claims (and for what pa...   Oct 8 2003, 10:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Sorry to be so boring...  Sorry if I s...   Oct 8 2003, 11:27
- - Garf   QUOTE (ScorLibran @ Oct 7 2003, 10:20 PM)(Not...   Oct 8 2003, 17:07
- - Diocletian   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 12:01 PM)...   Oct 9 2003, 18:27
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (Diocletian @ Oct 9 2003, 01:27 PM)Do y...   Oct 9 2003, 19:09


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