foo_pod - Foobar2000 meets the iPod, iPod -> Foobar2000 0.8 Options

[rufu]

I wonder if the iPod database interface Otto created will need updating to work with the new iPod. How was it when the mini was released?

I made no changes specifically to support the mini. And as far as I can tell, iTunes, which creates the databases, creates the same kind every time, regardless of what kind it's connected to. So far, anyway.

The multiple OTGPlaylist support will require changes to foo_pod, but I'm betting that it's just using multiple OTGPlaylist files and so should be relatively easy. But, no way to tell until somebody gets ahold of a 3.0 iPod and lets us know. Annoyingly, multi-OTGplaylists and deleting from OTGPlaylists should be software only and thus they could probably add these to the 3rd gen iPods.

I know, I was hoping that Apple would have release a firmware upgrade for the 3G iPods to give them some (if not all) of the new software features of the 4G

[rexy]

Yes; most of the 4G improvements are firmware based. I wonder if the iPod Updater can be hacked and forced to install version 3.0 on 3G iPods... will be interesting.
I'm not much of a hacker/cracker, but I'll see what I can discover about how the updater makes the decision of which version to install on the mounted iPod. Maybe you, Otto, may have a better chance at figuring this one out.

[ronyzyz1]

I wonder if the iPod database interface Otto created will need updating to work with the new iPod. How was it when the mini was released?

I made no changes specifically to support the mini. And as far as I can tell, iTunes, which creates the databases, creates the same kind every time, regardless of what kind it's connected to. So far, anyway.

The multiple OTGPlaylist support will require changes to foo_pod, but I'm betting that it's just using multiple OTGPlaylist files and so should be relatively easy. But, no way to tell until somebody gets ahold of a 3.0 iPod and lets us know. Annoyingly, multi-OTGplaylists and deleting from OTGPlaylists should be software only and thus they could probably add these to the 3rd gen iPods.

The iPod's filesystem supports deleting them just fine, as proven by the iPod Linux Project, so it's just Apple's annoying marketing scheme. Maybe someone will hack the firmware patch, or someone will emulate the iPod's menu/player system on iPod Linux.

Just like ye ol' battle between Windows and Linux, though without the firmware bit.

[Otto42]

Yes; most of the 4G improvements are firmware based. I wonder if the iPod Updater can be hacked and forced to install version 3.0 on 3G iPods... will be interesting.
I'm not much of a hacker/cracker, but I'll see what I can discover about how the updater makes the decision of which version to install on the mounted iPod. Maybe you, Otto, may have a better chance at figuring this one out.

Getting it on there is easy. Filling it with illegal drugs and sending it across the border is not.

Err.. I mean, that getting the firmware onto the device is not difficult to do, it's whether it'll run or not that's the big question. It may simply not be compatible. However, I'm betting that they will incorporate some of these new features into the older 3G iPod's. I'd say to give them some time. Some of the features added into 3rd gen iPod's made it down into 1st/2nd gen iPods too, as they released new firmwares for both simultaneously. The only time they've shown not to add new features is when the older hardware was not capable of supporting it, like in the case of the auto-updating smart playlists (older iPods are simply not fast enough to do this in a reasonable amount of time given the current DB format and such, and they may lack the memory to do it well also).

This post has been edited by Otto42: Jul 19 2004, 22:47

[Aero]

Err.. I mean, that getting the firmware onto the device is not difficult to do, it's whether it'll run or not that's the big question. It may simply not be compatible. However, I'm betting that they will incorporate some of these new features into the older 3G iPod's. I'd say to give them some time. Some of the features added into 3rd gen iPod's made it down into 1st/2nd gen iPods too, as they released new firmwares for both simultaneously. The only time they've shown not to add new features is when the older hardware was not capable of supporting it, like in the case of the auto-updating smart playlists (older iPods are simply not fast enough to do this in a reasonable amount of time given the current DB format and such, and they may lack the memory to do it well also).

It is my understanding that the 4G iPods use the same CPU(s) as the iPod Mini (PortalPlayer 5020), while all previous iPods use a variant of the PP5002 (same CPUs as the 5020, but different support hardware), so forcing the 4G firmware onto a 3G iPod likely will not work.

I'm sure Apple could have made dynamic smart playlists work on 1G/2G iPod, but like OTG playlists, it was a defining feature that set the 3G iPods apart. That's also why multiple OTG playlists, the new menu structure, and the shuffle songs feature will likely never be available on 3G iPods, even though it istechnically possible.

[rexy]

Well, it seems that to trick the iPod Updater all it takes is some really simple ResHack-ing, swaping some resources and editing some strings. I didn't try it though in fear of permanent damage to the iPod. Later, I was over at iPodlounge and someone, on OSX, decided to dare and try it and he says it just brings up a disk scanner error message on the iPod so he regressed back to 2.2... too bad, I guess. Maybe some hexing of the actual firmware and not just the updater can make it work on the 3G? Hmmm... I wonder if it's actually worth the bother... maybe the improved battery life is.

This post has been edited by rexy: Jul 20 2004, 04:51

[ezekiel2517]

Ipod g4 owner here. Just wanted to report that foo_pod seems to be working fine.

This is my first iPod, so I'm not experienced enough with either the iPod or foo_pod to be able to tell if everything is working 100% correctly, but so far so good.

Thanks for this great plug-in!

[fhjlx]

I use ml_iPod and foo_pod too with my 3g 15gig iPod and I've found that while the smart playlists in foo_pod work, they mysteriously stop working after i edit the itunesdb with ml_iPod. Is there a particular reason for this? I like both plugins and would like to continue using both.

[Otto42]

I use ml_iPod and foo_pod too with my 3g 15gig iPod and I've found that while the smart playlists in foo_pod work, they mysteriously stop working after i edit the itunesdb with ml_iPod. Is there a particular reason for this? I like both plugins and would like to continue using both.

ml_iPod does not support true smart playlists. I've been working with the developer to help him add that support. Well, basically I told him how it works then I just let him actually do it.

Anyway, yes, ml_iPod currently knows nothing about the special mhod types for smart playlists, and so it will not write them out when it updates the iPod's database file. Only solution is not to use ml_iPod at the moment, because it will destroy a true smart playlist.

Edit: Also, and I admit I'm not 100% sure on this, foo_pod doesn't actually populate smart playlists except in some special cases (1st or 2nd gen iPod or SPL uses Playlist or Grouping rules). If this is true, as I think it probably is (for speed reasons), then if you have a 3rd gen or higher, and the SPL in question does not contain a grouping or playlist rule, then all that's really being written to the iPod is the rules itself. The iPod then figures out what's supposed to be in the playlist. In this case, programs like ml_iPod may not show the playlist correctly in their display of what's on the iPod. It'll appear to be empty. This is because it actually is empty, it just contains the necessary rules. iTunes actually fills in all the songs for all the smart playlists, but foo_pod only does it in certain cases because a) it's faster and b) you don't notice any real difference in normal usage anyway.

ml_iPod also lacks support for a lot of other things in there as well. One thing he did add, like last week or something, was reading and writing of all the extra track data in the mhit structures, so stuff like the ReplayGain info that foo_pod will put in there should be preserved if you use the latest ml_iPod. It would be erased if you are using an older ml_ipod version. I recommend keeping up to date on it as he changes it.

This post has been edited by Otto42: Jul 24 2004, 06:19

[Aero]

Ipod g4 owner here. Just wanted to report that foo_pod seems to be working fine.

Thanks for the report!

[Aero]

I use ml_iPod and foo_pod too with my 3g 15gig iPod and I've found that while the smart playlists in foo_pod work, they mysteriously stop working after i edit the itunesdb with ml_iPod. Is there a particular reason for this? I like both plugins and would like to continue using both.

As Otto noted, this is almost certainly due to ml_ipod not understanding the smart playlist section in the iPod database, and instead of just copying and ignoring it, they are simply omitting it.

Out of curiousity, why do you want to use ml_ipod? By that, I mean is there any special feature or function that isn't available in foo_pod (other than the fact that it runs in Winamp)?

[.zolder]

Hi Aero, could you consider adding a "minimize" button to the transfer-in-progress window? (like the button in the "processing files" window that shows up when adding a lot of tracks to foobar's queue) If i add a couple of thousand songs to the iPod, i can't use my pc for about an hour, cause foobar can't be minimized during the proces.

tia

(i hope this hasnt been implemented in another way i havent noticed yet can't use foobar's native minimize button, that's for sure)

This post has been edited by .zolder: Jul 25 2004, 17:40

[Aero]

Hi Aero, could you consider adding a "minimize" button to the transfer-in-progress window? (like the button in the "processing files" window that shows up when adding a lot of tracks to foobar's queue) If i add a couple of thousand songs to the iPod, i can't use my pc for about an hour, cause foobar can't be minimized during the proces.

Actually in version 0.9.2, there is an option to hide the Foobar window during transfers. That should take care of most of your problem.

As far the minimize button on the progress windows, there actually is supposed to one there. I'm using the same progress windows as Windows Explorer, and I have the minimize button option enabled, but it doesn't seem to work. I'll have to look into it further, but untili that is working, you might be able to minimize the window by pressing Windows Key + D, or right click on the Windows task bar and select Show Desktop.

[.zolder]

Geez, i still was on 0.9.1a, i must have missed your 9.2 post

got 9.2 now, it does exactly what i want it to do! thanx!

btw: Windows Key + D won't work when it's not minimized. everything will minimize except for foobar, which will just stay as it is. But heck, it minimizes itself automatically

This post has been edited by .zolder: Jul 26 2004, 12:13

[ronyzyz1]

I am still having problems with playlists ignored in foobar2000 appearing as empty playlists on the iPod.

Perhaps the problem is that during a Sync All Playlists, playlists that are ignored but exist on the iPod are not deleted?

[mintcoffee]

Hi all! New to this board! I would like to start off by thanking the author of this component. IT ROCKS! Without it, I can't imagine having to put up with ITunes in order to sync my music!! Thanks a lot!

Anyways, I'm having a problem with ignored playlists, still showing up on my iPod, when using the sync and send all. I'm using the latest plugin (0.92 i think).

I think this began happening after I installed the latest foobar, but this is not definate.

I've tried toggling the ignore and not ignored states to see if it would remedy the problem, but to no avail. So.. just asking if there's any solutions to this problem! (or if anyone has experienced it themselves!)

[Storm]

In the Smart Playlist Editor, could you make the "Limit" clickable, as well as the check button? Like <label> in XHTML, if you've come across them... It's a good overall principle to make forms work this way.

[Aero]

Hi all! New to this board!  I would like to start off by thanking the author of this component. IT ROCKS! Without it, I can't imagine having to put up with ITunes in order to sync my music!! Thanks a lot!

Thanks!

Anyways, I'm having a problem with ignored playlists, still showing up on my iPod, when using the sync and send all. I'm using the latest plugin (0.92 i think).

I think this began happening after I installed the latest foobar, but this is not definate.

I've tried toggling the ignore and not ignored states to see if it would remedy the problem, but to no avail. So.. just asking if there's any solutions to this problem! (or if anyone has experienced it themselves!)

This problem has been reported a few times (includes DocUK's post right before yours), but I have never been able to narrow down the problem. I just picked up a 2nd iPod for development use, but I don't have a lot of free time at the moment to work on foo_pod. I'll try to reproduce and fix the ignored playlist problem in the next release.

[Aero]

In the Smart Playlist Editor, could you make the "Limit" clickable, as well as the check button? Like <label> in XHTML, if you've come across them... It's a good overall principle to make forms work this way.

This has been asked before (the foo_pod preferences work in the same fashion).

Basically, I can do this, but I like the way it is now, so changing it is a very low priority.

[Storm]

Okay... I would like to see it changed soon anyways. What is high priority right now?

[Aero]

BTW, the new iPod I bought is a 4G iPod. It just arrived today, so I haven't had much time to play with it, but here are my initial impressions:

Good:

• It came with an USB cable, and it is just an USB cable, not the ungainly Firewire/USB cable that Apple previously sold. And the iPod actually charges via the USB cable now. I have it hooked up to an unpowered USB2 hub, and I haven't had any power problems yet.
• The multiple On The Go playlist feature, which actually makes OTG useful. How this works is after you create the OTG playlist, as usual, you can go to Playlists->On-The-Go and there is a Save Playlist option as well as the 3G's Clear Playlist option. After you click Save Playlist, the previous OTG playlist shows up as a regular playlist, except it is named "New Playlist n" (you apparently can't rename these).
  Note for Otto - each saved OTG playlist is saved in the iTunes directory as "OTGPlaylistInfo_1", "OTGPlaylistInfo_2", etc. The unsaved OTG playlist is still OTGPlaylistInfo. I haven't tried parsing the saved OTG playlists yet, but it appears to be a standard MHPO. Shame on Apple if they don't back port this feature to 3G iPods...
• Speed - the new iPod is much faster at crunching data. For example, after adding a song, undocking, and selecting the Artist menu, the 4G iPod was maybe 2x as fast at getting to the menu as my 3G iPod.
• No incompatibilities with foo_pod...

Bad:

• The click wheel is really going to take some getting used to. Not only are the buttons on the wheel now, but you have to physically press on the wheel and it indents. I'm sure it is sturdy and well tested, but I can't get the old Atari 2600 joystick out of my mind when I use it. For those who don't remember or are too young, the standard Atari joysticks had little metal domes for the left, right, up, and down direction contacts. After extended use (like a single event in Activision Decathalon...), the domes would flatten out and the joystick wouldn't work right until you unscrewed it and bent the domes back. On the 4G iPod, even the center button clicks and the button is physically separate from the wheel, so little bits of dirt and finger grease might get in there. I'm sure I'll learn to live it it, but the light touch/no touch buttons on the 3G iPods seem much more elegant.
• Size - I wasn't expecting a big difference, but you need a micrometer to detect any size difference between the 3G and 4G iPods.

There are a few other minor changes, like the Shuffle Songs menu item (I haven't tried it yet), and the wheel clicker noise can be configured to play through the speaker, the headphones, or both. So the 4G iPod is basically a faster 3G iPod with slightly better software (that should run on a 3G anyway) and a (maybe) worse user interface.

[Aero]

Okay... I would like to see it changed soon anyways. What is high priority right now?

Starting a new job and learning C#

Oh, you mean as far as foo_pod is concerned. My biggest focus now is adding regular playlist support to the smart playlist editor (and hence making it just the Playlist Editor). Ideally, I want to make it so you can open up the PE, create a new playlist or edit an existing one, drag files from the Foobar window, and delete songs from the playlist.

Also now that I have the new iPod, adding something to deal with OTG playlists is suddenly a high(er) priority, along with potentially adding support for dealing with multiple iPods.

[Storm]

I think I'm sticking with my 3rd gen pod until Apple gets off their asses and make some REAL changes.

If they don't release the new firmware to 3rd gen users I will also hate them for an eternity.

Edit; I am happy to hear about the improved speed though.

This post has been edited by Storm: Jul 27 2004, 06:30

[Storm]

Okay... I would like to see it changed soon anyways. What is high priority right now?

Starting a new job and learning C#

Oh, you mean as far as foo_pod is concerned. My biggest focus now is adding regular playlist support to the smart playlist editor (and hence making it just the Playlist Editor). Ideally, I want to make it so you can open up the PE, create a new playlist or edit an existing one, drag files from the Foobar window, and delete songs from the playlist.

Also now that I have the new iPod, adding something to deal with OTG playlists is suddenly a high(er) priority, along with potentially adding support for dealing with multiple iPods.

C#? I haven't decided if that's a mayor EWW yet... given any thought to Java? I'm kinda interested in starting programming for real.

But you can edit playlists directly in foobar? ...can't you?

[scottder]

Of course this also means you'll be able to get a 3G Ipod cheap as well. I finally got to play with a Mini-Ipod the other day, and I think the move to the click wheel in the end is a good move for the 4G. Still wondering how the sound compares.

Scott