foo_pod - Foobar2000 meets the iPod, iPod -> Foobar2000 0.8 Options

[LadFromDownUnder]

I've searched and couldn't find whether this question has been asked before: could I place foobar on an iPod, connect the iPod as an external drive, and run foobar (including foo_pod) from the iPod? I'm thinking YES, but before I purchase a Shuffle I want to know how 'portable' my music solution can be.

Thanks in advance.

ps: Many thanks to Aero (and Otto42, and all others) for their work on this project.

[Aero]

I've searched and couldn't find whether this question has been asked before: could I place foobar on an iPod, connect the iPod as an external drive, and run foobar (including foo_pod) from the iPod?  I'm thinking YES, but before I purchase a Shuffle I want to know how 'portable' my music solution can be.

This is a very good question.

The answer is absolutely yes - Foobar2000 and foo_pod will work great running from any drive, including directly from an iPod. I actually hadn't tried this before you posted, but for a test, I just copied my entire Foobar2000 directory from my hard drive to my iPod, then ran it. It only took 6MB of disk space, and that is a full "special" install of Foobar along with LAME and FAAC, so it could be a lot smaller. One nice thing is that since Foobar and foo_pod store all of their settings in a file, rather than in the registry, you can easily move the Foobar2000 directory around, and it will just work. It actually makes a lot of sense to put foo_pod directly on the iPod, so you can always move files onto and off of the iPod.

One question that I don't know the answer to is if foo_pod actually works with the iPod Shuffle. I am so Apple's bitch, so I will probably end up buying at least a 512MB Shuffle, but until I do or hear from a Shuffle owner, I have no idea if it works at all...

[LadFromDownUnder]

I've searched and couldn't find whether this question has been asked before: could I place foobar on an iPod, connect the iPod as an external drive, and run foobar (including foo_pod) from the iPod?  I'm thinking YES, but before I purchase a Shuffle I want to know how 'portable' my music solution can be.

This is a very good question.

The answer is absolutely yes - Foobar2000 and foo_pod will work great running from any drive, including directly from an iPod. I actually hadn't tried this before you posted, but for a test, I just copied my entire Foobar2000 directory from my hard drive to my iPod, then ran it. It only took 6MB of disk space, and that is a full "special" install of Foobar along with LAME and FAAC, so it could be a lot smaller. One nice thing is that since Foobar and foo_pod store all of their settings in a file, rather than in the registry, you can easily move the Foobar2000 directory around, and it will just work. It actually makes a lot of sense to put foo_pod directly on the iPod, so you can always move files onto and off of the iPod.

One question that I don't know the answer to is if foo_pod actually works with the iPod Shuffle. I am so Apple's bitch, so I will probably end up buying at least a 512MB Shuffle, but until I do or hear from a Shuffle owner, I have no idea if it works at all...

Cheers Aero! Exactly what I suspected, and hoped for.

[Otto42]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the iPod Shuffle does not use the iTunesDB concept, since it doesn't allow for things like playlists and doesn't do things like display track names and such.

So my guess is that foo_pod will not work with the iPod Shuffle as it is. But until somebody actually takes a gander at it, we won't know.

[Aero]

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that the iPod Shuffle does not use the iTunesDB concept, since it doesn't allow for things like playlists and doesn't do things like display track names and such.

So my guess is that foo_pod will not work with the iPod Shuffle as it is. But until somebody actually takes a gander at it, we won't know.

I'm not so sure. The smart thing for Apple to do would be to build a cheap player that uses the already existing iTunesDB format - it saves work on both the player and iTunes sides. The player needs some kind of database for the songs anyway and there has to be at least one playlist, since you can play the songs in the user-supplied order. And since there is no display, they can leave out a lot of stuff like the Artist/Album/Title strings, which makes up the majority of the iTunesDB size. Also, iTunes' AutoFill feature sounds exactly like a SmartPlaylist, with the limit set to the amount of song disk space, randomized, probably stored as a non-updating playlist on the Shuffle.

OTOH, Apple has done some really questionable design decisions with the various iPod databases and I have no doubt that they could screw this one up, so like you said, until someone posts some technical details there really is no telling. Anyway, if I end up with a Shuffle, I'll make sure it works with foo_pod, one way or another!

[FreydNot]

EDIT: It seems to have fixed it self now. They still don't update instantly, but they do if you go up to the Playlists option on the Music menu and then navigate back down to the playlist. It didn't used to work that way, so something fixed it self. I did a factory restore and loaded my entire library using foo_pod's "send files to ipod" feature. Go figure...




A bit OT but relating to smart playlists. I do realise this is most likely an Apple problem, but I'd like to see if others have the same issues..

On the iPod, when are Smart Playlists updated? My fear is they are only updated during a PC to iPod sync.

Let's assume I have a simple SPL (Not played within 1 week, limit to 25 via random). Now assume I listen to all 25 songs (all the way through - their play count gets incremented). All the songs no longer meet the criteria, but the play list has not changed.

I was under the impression the iPod would automaticly update the playlist in real time. iTunes does in fact change the SLP in real time.

Here is another easy demonstration... Make a SPL of Rating equals 0. Play the SPL and then rate the song which is currently playing. If you do this in iTunes, the song stops playing immediately and disappears from the SPL. If you do this on the iPod though, nothing changes.

Is this normal? Does anyone's iPod update SPL's on the fly?

I have a 4th Gen and I have gone as far as doing a factory reset and doing the above tests exclusively with iTunes software to make sure it wasn't a problem limited to foo_pod.

This post has been edited by FreydNot: Jan 15 2005, 13:27

[FreydNot]

The problem: I'd like to use replay gain album gain when listening to albums in order, but I want to use replay gain track gain when listening to random play lists.

Possible solution: Make a second database copy of all the songs (a mirror of sorts) but use RG track gain. These new "fantom" songs would only be used in the RND_ generated play lists.

From there it would be easy for the end user to base all smart play lists from one of the RND_ lists to enjoy the benefit of RG track gain.

Aero, What do you think?

[Otto42]

On the iPod, when are Smart Playlists updated?  My fear is they are only updated during a PC to iPod sync.

Short answer: On 1G and 2G models, your fear is correct. On 3G and up models, it's updated more or less immediately, for a certain definition of immediately.

Long answer: In order for the iPod to actually change the contents of the playlist, you have to exit the playlist (meaning: play something other than the playlist, like another playlist or something from the Browse menu, or let it go into deep sleep), and then come back to the playlist. Then it'll update. Think of it as recalculating the contents of the playlist when you actually select it in the playlists menu and tell it to play.

Also, in some cases, you can create a smart playlist that will be "dumb" on even a newer iPod. With the latest 3G firmware, this will happen when you use either the "Grouping" or the "Playlist" rules in the Smart Playlist. I do not know if this is the same with the 4G and up iPod's.

[Otto42]

The problem:  I'd like to use replay gain album gain when listening to albums in order, but I want to use replay gain track gain when listening to random play lists.

Possible solution:  Make a second database copy of all the songs (a mirror of sorts) but use RG track gain.  These new "fantom" songs would only be used in the RND_ generated play lists.

From there it would be easy for the end user to base all smart play lists from one of the RND_ lists to enjoy the benefit of RG track gain.

If you duplicate the song entries (mhit's) in the DB, you could do this. It'd increase the size of the database by about 75-80%, but it'd work. I've done this in testing, for other reasons.

Problem with this idea is that you get duplicate song entries in the Browse menu. So when you go play an album, every song plays twice. You could avoid this with some song renaming trickery (add "z-TG" to the beginning of every mhod in the mhit, to shove it to the bottom of the list), but the solution will be somewhat unsatisifying no matter what you do.

In the end, every song on the iPod has to be listed in the Browse menu or the iPod can't play it: it won't even know it's there unless it's in the Browse categories. If you want to make a pretend entry with a different gain value, then you can, but you'll have another entry somewhere in each of the browse categories (Genre, Album, Artist, Song Title, Composer) because of it.

[FreydNot]

Also, in some cases, you can create a smart playlist that will be "dumb" on even a newer iPod. With the latest 3G firmware, this will happen when you use either the "Grouping" or the "Playlist" rules in the Smart Playlist. I do not know if this is the same with the 4G and up iPod's.

Thanks for the info. I've no idea why it wasn't working before, but it definately is now. My advice for others with this problem would be to do a full factory reset and then a fresh restore of all songs using foo_pod.

Interestingly, with the latest version of firmware in my 4G I don't have to play something else to force the update.

For example...

SPL "rating = 0". Start playlist at first song. Rate that song. Leave it playing and press menu twice. This puts us at the "Playlists" menu. Immedately decend back into the same SPL and the list will have updated.

[Aero]

The problem:  I'd like to use replay gain album gain when listening to albums in order, but I want to use replay gain track gain when listening to random play lists.

Otto already did a good job summed up the reason why duplicating songs on the iPod would technically work, but wouldn't be very practical.

Maybe a workable solution would be to have something like a "blend" ReplayGain mode. I'm not going to do the real logarithmic math right now, but I'm what I'm talking about is if you had a track gain of -10dB and an album gain of -5dB, the blended gain would be something like -7dB.

[Aero]

Thanks for the info.  I've no idea why it wasn't working before, but it definately is now.  My advice for others with this problem would be to do a full factory reset and then a fresh restore of all songs using foo_pod.

One simple thing you might also want to try first is a soft reset (hold down the Menu and Play/Pause buttons on a 1/2/3G for a few seconds, and the middle button and Menu buttons on a click wheel iPod). I haven't seen the smart playlist problem, but I have seen the Audiobooks menu go completely blank on both a 4G and Photo. Doing a reset always fixes this problem, and it might fix your smart playlist problem as well.

[Aero]

Good news regarding the iPod Shuffle! Mike Rowehl (from Bitsplitter Blog) sent me the iTunesDB file from his iPod Shuffle.

It loaded directly into foo_pod without modification, and as far as I can tell, it is identical to a regular iPod's database. In fact, even though the Shuffle doesn't have a screen, iTunes still includes the Artist/Album/Title/Genre strings which are normally displayed/browsable. This is very interesting - either it means that Apple is lazy and made no code changes, or perhaps things like Smart Playlists might work on the Shuffle...

Even through the database formats appear to be the same, Mike reported that GNUPod wasn't able to transfer songs to the iPod Shuffle, so there might still be some difficulties is making it work with foo_pod. But at least it appears that with little or no modifications, foo_pod should work with the Shuffle.

[Otto42]

How do the playlists on the Shuffle look? Is there just the one hidden playlist, sort of thing? Or does it make several playlists to work with?

Might be the same format used in a slightly different manner, which is why gnupod didn't seem to work.

[Aero]

How do the playlists on the Shuffle look? Is there just the one hidden playlist, sort of thing? Or does it make several playlists to work with?

Might be the same format used in a slightly different manner, which is why gnupod didn't seem to work.

I'll send you the files, but there was only 1 playlist (the default hidden one), with normal looking MHIPs. The DB version is up to 12 now, and the type 52 MHODs are longer, although I doubt that has any affect on the iPod.

Mike emailed back and said the GNUPod also was able to read the iTunesDB file, but also said "when written using GNUpod the shuffle refused to play them (or play anything after writing actually, new or old, until I used iTunes to resend the songs).".

There is a new file in the iTunes directory called "iTunesSD" which might be the problem/solution. Now that I think of it, I bet that is the real database that the Shuffle uses, and the iTunesDB file might be from one of Mike's unsuccessful attempts with GNUPod or might be there for iTunes' benefit. iTunesSD is essentially just a list of filenames, and might be the only database actually read by the Shuffle...

[XanDaMan]

Is it possible (and un damaging) to do this.

I have my iPod Mini set to sync with iTunes. Could I still have this setup, the use foobar to add a few songsafter, w/o it screwin up the sync with iTunes.

So would it still report playcounts to iTunes for songs that are in the library, and would syncing stay nice (awkardly put, I know).

I realize the songs I add with foobar won't stay after the sync, but thats what I want, to b able to add them later.

[Lew_Zealand]

Is it possible (and un damaging) to do this.

I have my iPod Mini set to sync with iTunes. Could I still have this setup, the use foobar to add a few songsafter, w/o it screwin up the sync with iTunes.

More importantly, would iTunes stomp out the replaygain data that gets written with foo_pod?

[Otto42]

Is it possible (and un damaging) to do this.
I have my iPod Mini set to sync with iTunes. Could I still have this setup, the use foobar to add a few songsafter, w/o it screwin up the sync with iTunes.
So would it still report playcounts to iTunes for songs that are in the library, and would syncing stay nice (awkardly put, I know).
I realize the songs I add with foobar won't stay after the sync, but thats what I want, to b able to add them later.

Should work. Just don't use any of the sync functions in foo_pod. These are disabled in foo_pod by default anyway.

More importantly, would iTunes stomp out the replaygain data that gets written with foo_pod?

Yes, yes it would.

[radiooracle]

There is a new file in the iTunes directory called "iTunesSD" which might be the problem/solution.  Now that I think of it, I bet that is the real database that the Shuffle uses, and the iTunesDB file might be from one of Mike's unsuccessful attempts with GNUPod or might be there for iTunes' benefit.  iTunesSD is essentially just a list of filenames, and might be the only database actually read by the Shuffle...

I just restored my iPod shuffle to factory conditions and there was an iTunesDB file and an iTunesSD file placed there by iTunes when I refilled the device.

As an avid foobar user and recent iPod Shuffle purchaser, I would like to do anything I can to assist in getting foo_pod working with the Shuffle. If there is anything you guys would like me to do, let me know.

EDIT: I should also mention that I got files I wrote out to my iPod Shuffle to play once, but I can't remember how I did it (it would only play one of the 40 or so songs I placed on it). One thing I've noticed is that iTunes only seems to store files with in the F00, F01, & F02 directories within the Music directory. In the few cases where I was able to get files sent with foo_pod to play, it was always files in these directories that would play.

This post has been edited by radiooracle: Jan 19 2005, 00:29

[Aero]

I just restored my iPod shuffle to factory conditions and there was an iTunesDB file and an iTunesSD file placed there by iTunes when I refilled the device.

As an avid foobar user and recent iPod Shuffle purchaser, I would like to do anything I can to assist in getting foo_pod working with the Shuffle.  If there is anything you guys would like me to do, let me know.

Otto and I (mostly Otto) have a rough understanding of the iTunesSD format, and just today, I wrote code that can create this file, at least based on our current understanding. But I don't have an iPod Shuffle, so it is hard to know how close full support is.

Thanks for your offer of help. Any data files (iTunesDB & iTunesSD, if not the whole iTunes directory contents) would be appreciated, but there are more precise ways to help us discover what the various fields mean. If I were doing the initial test, I would probably do the following:

* Wipe the iPod Shuffle using the iPod Updater.
* Using iTunes 4.71, manually load one .mp3, one .m4a, one .m4b, one .m4p (from the Apple Store - either use one you already own, or download the weekly free one), one WAV file, and preferably an Audible file (you can download free ones like the 9-11 Report, but it is a hassle).
* With the iPod Shuffle in the playlist order mode (i.e. not shuffle), let the first song songs play all the way through three times, let the second one play all the way through twice, then let the remaining songs play for a few seconds, then skip to the next one. This will help to see if some of the fields are things like bookmark time, play count, etc.

That would be a pretty good start, although I'm sure there would need to be some iteration back and forth until the meaning of all fields were clear. Otto might have some other suggestions as well.

EDIT: I should also mention that I got files I wrote out to my iPod Shuffle to play once, but I can't remember how I did it (it would only play one of the 40 or so songs I placed on it).  One thing I've noticed is that iTunes only seems to store files with in the F00, F01, & F02 directories within the Music directory.  In the few cases where I was able to get files sent with foo_pod to play, it was always files in these directories that would play.

Interesting - so just using foo_pod, you were able to transfer songs to the Shuffle and they successfully played (at least the ones in F00 - F02)? If that is the case, I can easily create a version of foo_pod that only uses these directories for the Shuffle. I'll try to get something up tonight for testing.

[Aero]

Interesting - so just using foo_pod, you were able to transfer songs to the Shuffle and they successfully played (at least the ones in F00 - F02)?  If that is the case, I can easily create a version of foo_pod that only uses these directories for the Shuffle.  I'll try to get something up tonight for testing.

I just uploaded a version of foo_pod that only uses F00 - F02, if it detects an iPod Shuffle.

If any iPod Shuffle owners want to test it, it is available here. This version does not create the iTunesSD file, since I don't really know enough details to make it work yet.

[darkstriker]

When I load my iPod songs as a fb2k playlist, i get one gigantic playlist with all my songs. I would like to know if there is some kind of function or an additional plugin that enables me to split that huge playlist in several smaller ones, for instance, one for each artist or one for each album?

cheers!!

[Aero]

When I load my iPod songs as a fb2k playlist, i get one gigantic playlist with all my songs. I would like to know if there is some kind of function or an additional plugin that enables me to split that huge playlist in several smaller ones, for instance, one for each artist or one for each album?

I don't know how many unique artists/albums I have on my iPod, but I'm sure it is in the 100s range and I know I wouldn't want to open a new playlist for each one!

Maybe creating a smart playlist, then opening it in Foobar is sort of what you are looking for. Or maybe the Extended Playlist Generator or an alternate UI like foo_ui_columns would do the trick?

[darkstriker]

Yeah, using the columns_UI and the extended search generator helped.

However, since I also have more than a hundred diferent artists in my pod, i don't want to have to manually create a playlist by searching the artist in the generator, typing it's name and pressing save for each of these hundred artists.

If I can have something that'll do this automatically, all the artists will appear on the left column (playlists) thus making it a lot easier to browse through them.

[JuG]

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but foo_pod keeps mounting my iPod even if there is no obvious reason.
Example: i have my iPod docked to recharge. I don't need it so i did foo_pod->Eject iPod. Thus i don't have to worry about taking it out of the dock when i'm in a hurry.
But every time i access the contextmenu, to change track-properties, rating, whatever... foo_pod mounts the iPod - there is no use, it just causes a useless delay waiting for the iPod.

Also it should be possible to change the foo_pod preferences without the iPod being mounted. For i don't see any options that are stored on the iPod. And changing the preferences if works perfect without an iPod connected - so why mount if there is an iPod in the dock?

In fact, foo_pod should not mount the iPod unless it needs to change data on the iPod!
I didn't find any option to change this behavior.
Correct me if i'm wrong.

Cheers
jug