Loudness war - my conversation with a producer Options

[shadowking]

I emailed a producer of an album about the loudness issue. This CD is good but very loud: -10.24db album gain

Album: Daysend - serverance (Australian metal on a small record label www.chatterboxrecords.com)

Asked him why this is happening IN CAPS hoping to get a response and boy did I ever:

===========================================================================My original email:
=====================================================

LOUDER ISN'T ALWAYS BETTER. SEVERANCE SOUNDS FLAT LIKE A TOP 40 CD. ITS JUST BORING AND TIRING AFTER 20 MINUTES.

STOP THE LOUDNESS RACE NOW

www.loudnessrace.net

http://www.proaudiorx.com/dynamicrange.htm

www.digido.com

http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/



=====================================================
The response:
=====================================================


Subject: Re: Daysend - Severance


hey f---witt,
who r u ? don't flood my email with your pathetic crap.
just f--k off w--ker

=====================================================
Now my response:
=====================================================

Nik,
>
> I wrote in caps because the labels never reply to my questions. All I am
> saying is that in my opinion the loudness level on the album is too
> excessive on the album - it causes fatigue. Why is this happening
> everywhere? Do you really think that it sounds better ?
>
> Maybe you are not the person to address this issue, in that case I am
sorry
> for all this noise.

---===================================================
His response:
=====================================================

To: "ng"
Subject: Re: Daysend - Severance

we love the sound.we love the record.and not interested in your nonsense.
louder is better.



=====================================================


Conclusion: According to mr producer my questions are 'nonsense' and louder is better. Full stop.

[shadowking]

Damn I posted into the wrong forum - sorry.

[David Nordin]

Seriously, what the crap would you expect from a mail like that? Coming on like some besserwisser is really a bad approach.

The mail you sent looks no different than the common spammail.

If you'd try to be more polite and informative you'd surely get a more appropriate answer and a dialog, now you're pretty much stuck with a really really bad first impression.

Another thing is that you can't expect anyone to appreciate being "saved" from loudness. You can't change the world over a night.

[Lev]

Way to go Shadowking... That really helped the cause, didn't it?

Is the producer even the guy to email about this? I'm not sure what his(her) role is in the whole process.

[2Bdecided]

Actually, with a fair and reasoned approach you could get even harsher words back!

When people (who are paid for doing the job) start to suspect that maybe you do know something that they don't, i.e. that you understand this aspect of audio and music better than them, and can hear things that they can't - then they can get really aggressive!

The "top guys", even if they're making squashed records (for whatever reason), don't mind the criticism. But the mediocre guys, who are just copying everyone else - they don't like to be made to feel so insecure!

(this is a general observation on life, not a specific experience in this area - it's wise not to show mediocre people how mediocre they are - they probably know already, and have no ability to change)

Go shadowking!

Cheers,
David.

P.S. - of course the most likely response is "how many (No.1) albums have you mastered?" - I can't think of a good reply to that one!

[Funkstar De Luxe]

P.S. - of course the most likely response is "how many (No.1) albums have you mastered?" - I can't think of a good reply to that one!

Lie. Tell them 2. Then go on to tell them that they are ruining your music. I'm sure you know more than enough to blag your way thought it.
Anyway, if you're looking for another artists/producers coments look for my post on "Dynamic Compersion". Vladislav is a very nice man, but his album was about "replaygain_track_gain = -6.54 dB" He was more than willing to discuss this with me and still e-mails me to this day. So not evey one isn't open to constructive criticism. I know if I had recieved an e-mail like the one you sent him, I'd be pissed too. Telling a man his engineering/mixing/mastering is crap just isn't the way to go about it.

PLUG; look at his site if you want www.luomomusic.com

[Pio2001]

"how many (No.1) albums have you mastered?" - I can't think of a good reply to that one!

Simple :

You think that this egg tastes bad ? How many eggs have you layed ?

[tboehrer]

I actually think shadowkings original e-mail was fine. The producer is not likely to forget it. So what if he got pissed. That's a normal reaction to someone telling you something of yours sucks. A politer message would likely have been ignored. Maybe next time, he'll at least think about it.

[kiit]

Its a fad, if you do not like the sound, don't buy.. They want it to sound that way, its the way that style of music "should" sound. It is what people buy, you buy it! Which is what that producer told you, in his own Luser (another FAD) way. Fads pass when people get tired of supporting them with plastic... err dollars (another passing fad it seems, alas).

Personally, nothing made in this way appeals to me so I do not buy that style of music.

You could look at it another way, the way your producer friend probably does. Good dynamic range and responsive music was just a passing fad, now we know that highly compressed LOUD music is actually more IN DEMAND and we like it that we can make money this way. Making every CD sound that way no matter who the musicians were must be hard work. They worked hard making that CD sound like that, why should they not be proud of it? Just because you think they should make it sound some otherway they should change from what they like and what is proven successful for them by people buying it, like you.

Do you know how few people can actually tell that the music they listen too is over compressed/loud? Be happy you at least can tell the difference, most people don't know, don't care. Likely will lead to a greater enjoyment of music for you as you find more music of the type you would like to become accustomed to hearing.

Buy the music you like. Which would explain the continuing existence of opera anyway.

[echo]

Maybe next time, he'll at least think about it.

Somehow, although I would like that to happen I don't think it is likely...

regards
echo

[outscape]

maybe we should stop buying CDs that are too loud. for me it's a waste of money anyway because i really don't enjoy listening to such CDs. i reckon that's the only way to get producers and record labels to change the way they record music.. hit them where it hurts most: the wallet (or in the nuts )

[echo]

maybe we should stop buying CDs that are too loud. for me it's a waste of money anyway because i really don't enjoy listening to such CDs. i reckon that's the only way to get producers and record labels to change the way they record music.. hit them where it hurts most: the wallet (or in the nuts )

The music industry people seem to be so stuborn and stupid they will just blame it all to music piracy. Aaaargh... Oh, I forgot, they already blame piracy as the only reason music sales have dropped

regards
echo

[kiit]

These CDs probably do well in focus groups, dance clubs and the like. They will re-mix a song over and over trying various things, hoping for a hit. At least they used to, until they got the most popular sound for that song possible. It isn't so much that they deliberately set out to ruin the music, just they want to be popular and make money..

Maybe the results of the studies they conduct are slanted towards a very very different listener than would be represented here at Hydrogenaudio. From my reading of the boards here people tend to listen for long periods of time. I myself have music on all through my day if I can, only some of that is spent with the headphones on actually listening intently though. Most people I know listen at most to maybe half a song they like on the radio when it comes on in the car or at work. Pleasing such widely varying listening styles would be difficult, some artists go for popular loud sound because they become famous and make good money doing stuff they enjoy. Some still want to make music like art even if it means they will not be a big success, some just want to make a living

To get a popular hit takes much hard work, mostly in just getting people to hear you that first time, to pay attention and actually listen to your song instead of tuning it out while they are in the car coming home from work talking on the cell phone with the radio going... Louder probably does lead to more listeners and once you got their attention, if they want more of your music you will stick with the _sound_ that attracted them in the first place. Compression and Loudness become the ways that work.

The good part is that not all music will be crafted to meet this criteria. Praise what you like to your friends and explain why you like it in a positive way. Be gentle when hearing music you do not like. Music has changed so much, always when this happens some will hate the new sound. I heard some people thought the beatles sounded horrible, "like noise, not music". Probably the most successful, listened to muscians of all time.

[ProtectYaNeck36]

All of the CDs that I have purchased under the Sony Music Entertainment label have guarantees that read:

This Compact Disc was manufactured to meet critical quality standards.  If you believe the disc has a manufacturing defect, please call out Quality Management Department at 1-800-255-7514...

I believe an RMS of -8 and extreme amounts of clipping constitutes "a manufacturing defect."

This post has been edited by ProtectYaNeck36: Apr 20 2004, 22:54

[analogy]

I have Queens of the Stone Age - Songs for the Deaf in my playlist, and it sounds absolutely nasty next to some of the less compressed music. It makes my ears ache after listening for a while. I'm glad I can set foobar on shuffle so I don't hear it that often. I especially hate the drum tones, there's no attack anymore, on their single No One Knows the snare drum sounds like an electronic snare.

[MugFunky]

these CDs don't sound better in clubs. they don't sound better on decent stereos. they don't sound better on crap stereos.

they are mastered for "bedroom listening"... the maximum volume you can manage without your mum running in saying "turn that noise down!".

with equal SPL, the dynamic mix will _always_ sound better. try it with foobar - output to a large-ish hifi, and crank it until things start moving. you'll be searching your playlist for the more dynamic songs, i guarantee. (at least i did. it's a shame when only a few songs out of about 1000 give you this sound)

there's a flip-side to not buying squashed CDs, and that is buying dynamic CDs. let the people know what you like, not just what you don't like. marketing people are slow learners, but they'll learn twice as fast this way.

Fads pass when people get tired of supporting them with plastic... err dollars (another passing fad it seems, alas).

hang on... all the money is plastic in Australia (except schrapnel). has been for several years.

[2Bdecided]

I like your reply Pio2001!


Someone said something today which fitted in well with this thread:

"...well, my experience suggests you should do it this way. Still, you know what experience is don't you?"
"No..."
"25 years of doing the same thing wrong..

...and in really good companies, they get the experienced person to train up someone else before he retires so that the same thing can be done wrong for the next 25 years!"


btw, it's very easy to make a loud CD. It's difficult to make a good loud CD, but it's probably even more difficult to make a good dynamic CD.

Cheers,
David.

[Funkstar De Luxe]

Actually, good dynamic recordings come easy. It's only when you start trying to comress the whole mix you make things difficult.

Tony

[Kuuenbu]

Wow, your mentioning of my website in that letter managed to desecrate it even more than that crappy April Fool's joke I posted on it a couple weeks back!

Seriously, your e-mail sounds like it was written by a hyperactive 12-year-old. Not only that, but it didn't really say anything at all. How are you going to convince anyone with just "HURR THE CD IS TOO LOUD"? It kinda helps if you actually DISCUSS the issue. Point out what happens to the music when it's pushed far beyond the limit (and in a lot of cases it also helps to tell them that there IS a limit), explain why the entire idea is so futile, tell them that there are many more peope who hold this view, etc. etc. Of course people are going to think louder is better when they don't realize what they're doing.

What's even worse is the bad name you're giving for everyone who shares these views. People will be LESS likely to change their ways when the people offering such write letters like yours. You're representing a very underrepresented ideology; try to refrain from sounding like a drooling Linkin Park fan when you do it. And no, posting links isn't going to make up for it.

This post has been edited by Kuuenbu: Apr 22 2004, 05:41

[MugFunky]

i don't think emailing is going to help this situation much. i think some of us are going to have to start mastering CDs professionally.

bring the level down from the inside

of course, with the likes of Bob Katz shouting about this, and still no response, i doubt anything is going to change until CD finally becomes obsolete

[tboehrer]

I still don't think shadowkings e-mail was that bad. In fact, his response to the producers rude response was polite, and the producer was still non-receptive and rude.

Not e-mailing complaints to producers, bands, etc... will also accomplish nothing. If these guys get enough e-mails/phone calls, they will at least be aware there are people unhappy with it. shadowking (and all of us) have every right to be pissed, and express that to those at fault. It's not like shadowking would get his money back (at least I can't return opened CD's here).

Not buying CD's also doesn't convey the message. If they are even aware that sales are down (which a small label is probably not capable of tracking), they would probably not correlate it to bad production.

You have to tell them. In one form or another.

It's the noisy-minority theory. It works for activists all the time. But not doing anything will produce nothing. And no... simply posting a web site won't do much either. If they don't know already, it's not like they'd find the sites otherwise.

This post has been edited by tboehrer: Apr 22 2004, 06:23

[plonk420]

how about sometime in the near future making a point for as many of us to write to bands/record labels and seeing if anyone gets reponses (and what they are)? i'm already thinking of writing to Evanescence and ... hrm, some other band i just heard in the last day or two...

This post has been edited by plonk420: Apr 22 2004, 07:20

[Artemis3]

Maybe someone should compose a good song with lyrics describing the issue. Maybe even have parts of the song overcompressed as to demonstrate the squarewave/whitenoise "feel" that the current trend is heading to.

I happen to like the way these songs were made

[2Bdecided]

Seriously, your e-mail sounds like it was written by a hyperactive 12-year-old.

Your website could attract similar criticism. I don't recall that Bob Katz needed to use the word "f..k"* when discussing the same issue in much greater depth.

In the big wide world, "bad" language is an easy way to stop people listening to your argument. Lots of people will just leave your site - and some with filtered connections (e.g. school children) won't even be able to see it.

btw - thanks for the link!

Cheers,
David.

* I can type the word just as well as you, but I don't want HA blocked on such filtered connections either.

[2Bdecided]

To go totally against my previous post...

http://www.airwindows.com/analysis/Albums/...ours/index.html

... If your rhythm section can do this you'll never lack for work. But also note the way Dreams' crest factor is a good 18 db at ALL times - these days if your mastering engineer can do this, the poor bastard is OUT of work!

That's so sad and funny at the same time!

Cheers,
David.