Loudness war - my conversation with a producer Options

[ChangFest]

i'm already thinking of writing to Evanescence and ... hrm, some other band i just heard in the last day or two...

I seriously doubt writing to mega-popular bands will have any effect. If we were to write to bands/studios, I'd suggest starting with a little less popular (smaller) outfits.


Edit: Hit reply button on accccicddenttt

This post has been edited by ChangFest: Apr 22 2004, 15:44

[Kuuenbu]

Maybe someone should compose a good song with lyrics describing the issue. Maybe even have parts of the song overcompressed as to demonstrate the squarewave/whitenoise "feel" that the current trend is heading to.

The problem would be finding a label that would be willing to promote it.

[Kuuenbu]

Your website could attract similar criticism. I don't recall that Bob Katz needed to use the word "f..k"* when discussing the same issue in much greater depth.

In the big wide world, "bad" language is an easy way to stop people listening to your argument. Lots of people will just leave your site - and some with filtered connections (e.g. school children) won't even be able to see it.

Yeah, I do plan on making a soccer mom-friendly version once it actually becomes good. Right now there are many other reasons that it's not quite ready for prime time as well, such as lack of content and poor design.

[shadowking]

Fast forward 3 years, a new album, same producer and we have made big progress:

2004 gain: -10.24 db
2007 gain: -11.51 db

[Light-Fire]

I emailed a producer of an album about the loudness issue. This CD is good but very loud: -10.24db album gain

Album: Daysend - serverance (Australian metal ...

Perhaps for that kind of "sound" a loud and clipped CD is OK.

[greynol]

Perhaps for that kind of "sound" a loud and clipped CD is OK.

Who said it was clipped?

[Light-Fire]

Perhaps for that kind of "sound" a loud and clipped CD is OK.

Who said it was clipped?

I don't know who said. I certainly didn't.

[Nick E]

I emailed a producer ...

hey f---witt,
who r u ? don't flood my email with your pathetic crap.
just f--k off w--ker

That's very revealing. He could have simply deleted the mail and got on with his life, that he chose to unleash his toilet-mouth on you shows how insecure he is.

we love the sound.we love the record.and not interested in your nonsense.
louder is better.

It shows a very low level of culture. He can't punctuate; he hasn't capitalized properly; he's also got a grammatical error in there. But most of all, he's really got nothing to say, and what he does say does not make sense. All he's got to say is "louder is better". How could that be true? It's like saying "taller is better". One might wish to be taller than one is, but no-one would wish to be taller than is comfortable for the furniture that's around or too tall to be able to buy clothes.

This post has been edited by Nick E: Sep 3 2007, 09:34

[skamp]

Maybe you should have introduced some clipping in your original message. Something like:

L__DER ISN'T ALW_YS B_TTER. SEVER_NCE S__NDS FL_T LIKE A T_P 40 CD. ITS JUST B_RING _ND TIR_NG AF__R 20 MIN_TES. STOP THE L__DNESS RACE N_W

[shadowking]

What's so pitifull is that they are stuck at a 'measly' -11 db because the industry has hit some technological brick wall. One gets the sense that they would use -16 db if they had the right tech.

This post has been edited by shadowking: Sep 3 2007, 15:29

[eevan]

Yes, they should purchase Finalizer 96K:

Inserted between the stereo output of your mixer or workstation and your master recording media, the Finalizer 96K dramatically enhances your material, creating that "radio ready" sound – previously unattainable outside a professional mastering house.

[Borbus]

Perhaps for that kind of "sound" a loud and clipped CD is OK.

WRONG! The new Slayer CD is clipped every other sample and it sounds awful. You might think that's fine for Slayer though since their guitars are clipping anyway.. but clipping from a guitar amp is much better than digital clipping. Otherwise they'd just record the album with cheap transistor amps (which clip harshly like a CD).

This "producer" is obviously a moron. He's probably the kind of producer that keeps turning stuff up while mixing instead of turning stuff down.

[shadowking]

I emailed a producer ...

hey f---witt,
who r u ? don't flood my email with your pathetic crap.
just f--k off w--ker

That's very revealing. He could have simply deleted the mail and got on with his life, that he chose to unleash his toilet-mouth on you shows how insecure he is.

we love the sound.we love the record.and not interested in your nonsense.
louder is better.

It shows a very low level of culture. He can't punctuate; he hasn't capitalized properly; he's also got a grammatical error in there. But most of all, he's really got nothing to say, and what he does say does not make sense. All he's got to say is "louder is better". How could that be true? It's like saying "taller is better". One might wish to be taller than one is, but no-one would wish to be taller than is comfortable for the furniture that's around or too tall to be able to buy clothes.

He is actually in charge of the bands old label. The real producer is DW Norton. Funny thing is that I found an online interview where he gives advise on recording quality. What quality do you get at -12 db ?

http://www.australianmusician.com.au/mag/s..._dw_norton.html

Perhaps for that kind of "sound" a loud and clipped CD is OK.

WRONG! The new Slayer CD is clipped every other sample and it sounds awful. You might think that's fine for Slayer though since their guitars are clipping anyway.. but clipping from a guitar amp is much better than digital clipping. Otherwise they'd just record the album with cheap transistor amps (which clip harshly like a CD).

This "producer" is obviously a moron. He's probably the kind of producer that keeps turning stuff up while mixing instead of turning stuff down.

Genre doesn't play as big a role as one would think. Listen to Bloody Kisses by Type O on a good setup - WOW!.. that was 93' gain is -6 gb.. Today even folk music is louder.

[Night Surfer]

This is being approached from the wrong end. We audiophiles are a minority. Consider the average Beavis and Butthead consumer. I saw a response on a P2P comment thread from an MFSL download that went something like this:

"What is this crap? What's wrong with the volume? I have to turn this up way loader than normal. Don't download this there's something wrong with it."

This would be the overwhelming response from the majority of consumers if they actually did put out a decently mastered CD.

Until the masses are converted the producers are simply supplying a demand.

[Borisz]

maybe we should stop buying CDs that are too loud.

They'll just blame the loss of sales on Piratebay.

Me, I don't care, my country legally allows copies (since they figured that it's impossible to stop people from recording FM radio to tapes), as long as I'm not making money out of it I can freely download any and all albums. Occasionally I'll buy the better albums (building a Yello discography at the moment), albums I actually feel they are worth paying for. The recording industry can suck it, they are in to make money and not music, I'll take the music and will not pay until they change their stance on this.

It's still nice to hear an occasional well mastered album, and I actually buy them should I ever come across one. Example: "The Eye" from Yello: -5db album gain, for a 2003 electronica album.

Movie Soundtracks are also funny. Take Pirates of the Caribbean: the first movie was composed by Klaus Badelt, the soundtrack cd album gain: -7,85db. Second and Third movie soundtracks, composed by Hans Zimmer: both around -4db.

This post has been edited by Borisz: Sep 3 2007, 18:54

[skamp]

We audiophiles are a minority.

There's a big difference between audiophiles (people who spend thousands of dollars on overpriced Hi-Fi components), and people who can tell the difference between Red Hot Chili Pepper's Californication and a well mastered CD on a €40 soundcard. You won't be taken seriously about these matters if you introduce yourself as an audiophile.

This would be the overwhelming response from the majority of consumers if they actually did put out a decently mastered CD.

They didn't seem to have that problem in the 80s. People are usually content with whatever they're fed. Don't blame them for liking crap and not demanding better from the music industry; blame the industry for lowering their standards in the first place.

This post has been edited by skamp: Sep 4 2007, 07:20

[Lyx]

We audiophiles are a minority.

There's a big difference between audiophiles (people who spend thousands of dollars on overpriced Hi-Fi components), and people who can tell the difference between Red Hot Chili Pepper's Californication and a well mastered CD on a €40 soundcard.

Most people aren't very conscious and aware. Those who are, ARE indeed a minority. The loudness war isnt something which happened overnight. It was a slow corruption. Most people are blind to slow changes and incompetent when it comes to analyzing problems. If you put an overcompressed album next to the same album but with high dynamics, they will first blame the dynamic album, because it is quieter. BUT, if replaygain were an integral part of normal playback systems, so that both albums were calibrated automatically.... THEN people WOULD notice that dynamic albums are better - because all the homework would have been done beforehand so that the only thing left to do by the listener, is the judgement.

People are usually content with whatever they're fed. Don't blame them for liking crap and not demanding better from the music industry; blame the industry for lowering their standards in the first place.

It always takes two for a continued abusive relationship. People can be hold responsible for their actions. The masses are guilty just as much as the abuser "music industry".

- Lyx

This post has been edited by Lyx: Sep 4 2007, 12:20

[GeSomeone]

They didn't seem to have that problem in the 80s.

The "consumers" use music differently compared the 70's or 80's. Portable is Da Ting now, on small earbuds or in cars, compression gives probably a better experience. Also (since the CD) a lot more low end can be produced.
The problem (what it has become this century) is that it is way overdone. To the point that loud parts appear to be less loud . The race for the loudest record is pathetic. I play my music using replaygain, so it's not getting louder for me anyway. On the radio, where they compress the hell out of everything anyway, it will not play louder either.

[skamp]

It always takes two for a continued abusive relationship. People can be hold responsible for their actions. The masses are guilty just as much as the abuser "music industry".

Young people grew up during the loudness war and older people aren't even aware of such a thing because they think most of the music that comes out nowadays is crap. The rest just don't understand what's happening, because it's not a topic of interest to them - they don't visit hydrogenaudio.org regularly or even know about it. Can you really blame ignorance in this particular case?

Artists, producers and engineers, however, have no excuse. They can only blame each other.

[greynol]

audiophiles (people who spend thousands of dollars on overpriced Hi-Fi components)

There is no reason for people who have good sense to concede the use of a perfectly good noun to idiots. I'd like to think that many of the people here are audiophiles.

[Lyx]

Can you really blame ignorance in this particular case?

Given enough time for self-education, you can always blame ignorance. People are responsible for themselves. "The others" are not responsible for ones own lack of investigative behaviour. To put it bluntly: its not the others job to educate you. Its your own job. Going by your logic, all germans during WW2 weren't responsible for supporting whats happening, because no one informed them. Sheep are guilty just as much as sheep-herders

- Lyx

This post has been edited by Lyx: Sep 4 2007, 17:06

[Brent]

With today's surplus of storage space, wouldn't the way to go about it be to supply the consumer with two tracks. A 'raw' cut and a radio-edit? There's space enough on a DVDA/SACD to do this I should think. Or add the radio edit in the form of mp3's, so that they can even be 'protected' (since that is what studios like) from the get-go when transferred to a computer. A third option could be, in light of the abundance of processing-power, that a player could chose between filters that are applied real-time. Again with dynamics or without.

Since this would obviously require a new format, and the fact that DVDA and SACD have failed, wouldn't this be feasible? Let's say we use a single DVD layer with a backwards compatible CD-layer as the hardware format. This gives us compatibility and space to provide both 'cuts'. The CD layer would be your ordinary 44.1KHz 16bit radio edit. Usable in all cars (that's where we want radio-edits) and low-end stereo's employed by people who don't want to touch the volume-knob. On the DVD-layer a properly edited cut in possibly even a higher resolution. Possibly even prepared MP3 included with protection. More current devices would switch with a button on the device between the 'optimized' layer and the hi fidelity layer so that you can choose what you want. Hmm, I now realize this sound basically like a SACD with a radio edit on the CD-layer, but anyhow, that would be fine too.

Or scrap the whole backwards compatibility, and just have a single DVD layer with 'optimized' MP3's and a, say 48KHz 24bit, properly edited track. Still with a mandatory 'switch' button on devices. When inserted in a computer, offer to copy the mp3's to drive with encryption for use on MP3-player. That way even the music-bizz can be happy.

Okay, I'll stop rambling, but I think you know what I mean. Essentially, providing both cuts on the same disc so that people can choose. Technically very possible and really without any downsides. Also, it could put more steam behind the adoption of the new format, now there hardly isn't.

[skamp]

Going by your logic, all germans during WW2 weren't responsible for supporting whats happening, because no one informed them. Sheep are guilty just as much as sheep-herders

Hum... you lose
You can't know everything or educate yourself about everything. You can't be blamed for your ignorance on just any topic.

[Madman1153]

At one point last week, My daughter (13) was listening to her Hannah Montana, et al. music in her ipod, all suitably compressed beyond all musical recognition. I sat down to listen to Schumann's Rhenish Symphony on my stereo. After awhile she came in and started listening. Sometime after she said, "The Music is boring". But, she stayed.
She has taken a liking to Opera lately. The Magic Flute is her favorite.
Expose your kids, friends, etc to well-recorded music. Classical, Jazz, classic rock, whatever.
When they get used to something better, they'll come around.

[PatchWorKs]

Very interesting discussion, why not involve the AAMS (Automatic Audio Mastering System) author ?