The problem with open-source audio..., ..is proprietary audio Options

[analogy]

I recently got a 1.5 GB USB keychain drive (a 1-inch HD, so it's cheaper than flash) and thought it would be neat to put some music on it and listen at work. I put my music collection in OGG format (Q=4) and foobar2000 on it, with CDex in case someone had a CD I wanted to rip (don't tell the RIAA =D).

The following is the gist a conversation with the guy next to me:

Me: {launches Foobar} This is the media player I use.
Him: Doesn't it have skins?
Me: Well... It *can,* but I didn't enable it. But here, look, I've got this crossfader plugin that analyzes the song and fades between tracks at the right time, gives it a "DJ" feel.
Him: Does it have any visualizations?
Me: Well... It's got this frequency analyzer, but I turn that off, I just listen to the music. Look, foobar can make all the songs the same volume so you're not constantly adjusting when you play songs from different albums.
Him: Can it play these Windows Media files I've been ripping {all the computers are XP and have big flashing icons pointing to WMP}
Me: Well... Microsoft hasn't told anybody how the format works, so nothing can. But foobar can play just about everything else, and you just have to install one file to add a new format.
Him: Okay, can I play your music in Windows Media Player?
Me: Well... You can, but it's complicated, you gotta install a Directshow filter. Hey, I wanna rip that CD... {launch CDex. CDex complains about lack of ASPI drivers for the CD-ROM} Uhhh, shoot.
Him: I think I'll stick with Windows Media Player. It's not having any problems, and it's easier.

The CDex part really suprised me, since it's always "just worked" on my 98 machine at home.

This post has been edited by analogy: Apr 20 2004, 19:05

[kjoonlee]

You can play WMA files with foobar2000 if you have the plugin.
http://www20.brinkster.com/escapesjunkyard/

If you can't get it to work, then you might need this.
http://fb2k-plugins.hydrogenaudio.org/Special/wmfdist.exe

[dev0]

Him: Can it play these Windows Media files I've been ripping {all the computers are XP and have big flashing icons pointing to WMP}

Sure, just use foo_wma.

Him: Does it have any visualizations?

Not many native ones at the moment, but you can use Winamp Vis PlugIns with foo_vis_bacon.

And don't recent CDex versions have support for STPI?

dev0

P.S.: My girlfriend is a foobar2000 user since 2002-12 (don't remember the exact version number), so don't even try to continue this argument.

[kjoonlee]

Oh, the special installer has the WMA plugin bundled inside, and will download and install the wmfdist file for you if it's needed.

mirror: http://koti.mbnet.fi/chastity/

This post has been edited by kjoonlee: Apr 20 2004, 19:35

[Garf]

I think you missed his point, but anyway, the European Union is fining Microsoft for millions for pretty much exactly this reason.

Too bad they have so much money they don't really have to care...

[ViPER1313]

Foobar2000

-Has skins
-Has visualizations
-Can play WMA files

CDEX just needed a single driver file that is available for free - see here.

What is the point of this post again?

Edit12 - I really shouldn't feed the trolls.

This post has been edited by ViPER1313: Apr 20 2004, 22:11

[danchr]

The problem with Foobar isn't that it's open source. To see that open source can indeed offer ease of use, just look at Firefox and GNOME. My impression from reading these forums is that Foobar is the Emacs of audio players: You can tweak it to your needs and create a player that suits your needs perfectly. However, Joe User couldn't care less - he just wants something that does the job.

[analogy]

The point of my post was not to troll and say that open source was bad. Why do you think I use foobar and ogg in the first place? The point of my post is that Microsoft's tactics make it impossible to actually use and promote open source because they lock users into their proprietary crap by making it pretty and flashy with no real usability. My point was that while I was trying to show the guy all these awesome features and how extensible foobar was, all he cared about was the glitter.

[tboehrer]

So this wasn't a troll against Foobar or open source... it's a troll against Microsoft.

You can't blame Microsoft to catering to a users silly fetish for pretty things. Maybe other things, just not this.

While I don't use it... Media Player on my box as crossfader, SRS WOW effects, speed control, and volume leveling. It also supports two pretty good DSP's that I've used: 4Front and iZotopes Ozone.

Before someone flames me with: "But Foobar has replaygain which is better than WMP's volume adjustment!!!", or "Foobars XYZ does better than WMP's XYZ!!!".... I agree. But the average Joe probably won't care.

Now... if Media Player is free... and open source is free... it is hard to convince Joe User to be interested. But that's Joe Users fault... not MS's.

Now... if you want to complain about their tactic of bundling, as Garf pointed out, that's another issue. I won't go there.

[QuantumKnot]

Him: Okay, can I play your music in Windows Media Player?
Me: Well... You can, but it's complicated, you gotta install a Directshow filter. Hey, I wanna rip that CD... {launch CDex. CDex complains about lack of ASPI drivers for the CD-ROM} Uhhh, shoot.

Installing the OggDS filters isn't really too complicated. It's no different to installing any other windows program.

If you're running Win2K/XP, you can set the option to use Native SCSI something in CDex so you don't need the ASPI drivers.

[ddrawley]

Let me try. Analogy, are you trying to say that the masses are saying:



Moooooooo, what is Microsoft feeding me today.
Moooooooo

Edit: Corrected name

This post has been edited by ddrawley: Apr 21 2004, 04:23

[analogy]

Thanks for help everyone, I'll be bringing this stuff to work tomorrow. foo_wma doesn't work on my machine since for some reason a long time ago I accidentally used the wrong OS disk and installed 98 first edition instead of 98SE, and now the 98SE disk won't work because it sees my Linux-modified MBR and doesn't want to even attempt to install anything. Sooner or later I'm gonna nuke everything and start from a fresh Win2K install (XP gives me the willies), but I just haven't gotten around to sorting out my nightmare of a hard drive and figuring out what to back up.

[MugFunky]

hmm... i didn't read that post as a troll for anyone to be honest.

it's not just people who buy "computers for dummies" books that make it hard for the likes of foobar. it's advanced users too.

i had to explain to my (more computer savvy than me) friend why he should install foobar. he just couldn't get past the skins, even though he demo'd and understood all the perks of foobar (replaygain, DSPs, disk writer, etc). he just expected skins, and couldn't get used to a bloat-free GUI.

then of course there's people with such bad speakers that they are happy with the sound of the 56kbps WMA files on the read-protected Jane's Addiction CD, in spite of the fact they had me running like hell and washing my ears out with saline after hearing them. no need for ABX in this situation.

and of course, not to sound sexist, but women generally don't care what is playing their songs, so long as the songs play. there's half the potential userbase that wont change to foobar/vorbis/mpc unless an audio-nazi like me convinces them to (i did get her to use lame --aps. there's an achievement.)

[justo mikar]

It sounds to me that you guys are trying to push foobar as much as MS pushes wmp in its OSes. Telling friends why they should like foobar. Not that they may like it based on its feature set, or that they may like some other player. Also that skins should be marginalized because the benefits of foobar far outweigh a user's asethetic preferences.

[MugFunky]

that's a good point, but i mainly favour foobar because it gives me the option to do so many things, and it's better karma than using WMP.

software karma counts for a lot... i've even installed OpenOffice, mozilla, etc etc.

when linux becomes usable i'll install that too (no flames please)

i'll be jumping on GStreamer when it's ready. directshow is a Big Bucket of Bloat

of course, we've all got to be careful about zealotry. we are at the better end of the software spectrum, but there's no reason to crusade about it. nobody likes a fanatic, and they're a real easy target for the likes of Microsoft.

still, i see no problem with encouraging friends to use something that i feel would benefit them. if it weren't for us, people would have no choice at all except WMP and maybe iTunes if they're on a mac.

[amano]

Foobar is such a good player that it derserves promotion (unless it is annoying).

The same applies to eg firefox in the browser market.

And unless a big company is investing their money the good ol' mouth to mouth propaganda is the only way to make such a thing known. It is the user's decision in the end.

This post has been edited by amano: Apr 21 2004, 07:42

[rjamorim]

software karma counts for a lot...

I don't even know how to continue this argument

[Jan S.]

hm... foobar is not opensource per definition. the core is closed. A lot of the functions were seperated into dlls and the source released though.

[markusk]

Somehow I suspect that the issue with quite a lot of computer software (open source more often but also haunts the commercial side sometimes) is that the actual setting up phase is a difficult one. If in order to hear music you have to install this and that plugin, configure this and tweak that you are well off base where the as the end user is more interested in the location of the "play" button.

Some conclusions can be made here: real users (not pros or even advanced users) should be used when testing the program and also to see how they actually manage to set the program up. Generally less work to end user means a better chance of getting the user to adopt the program and use it.

This post has been edited by markusk: Apr 21 2004, 09:47

[Mac]

Foobar2000

-Has skins
-Has visualizations
-Can play WMA files

Have any of the visualisations reached the quality of Milkdrop yet?

[ep0ch]

Have any of the visualisations reached the quality of Milkdrop yet?

heh no chance. But there's no need when you can use foo_vis_bacon to get Milkdrop (and other Winamp) vis running with fooby.

[mvdb]

All my friends are switching to foobar. I didn't even encourage them, they just saw it running on my PC and liked the replay gain. And it's not like they're computer experts, they just downloaded it and figured it out for themselves.

[Jurg98]

I don't even understand why everybody wants to have skins or visualisations for their player (let alone for the excellent foobar)... Geez, it's a player, not a freak show! I use it to play music, not to stare at it (in fact, it's minimized 95% of the time). If I want to hang up curtains (perish the thought) I will do so in my living room, and if I want to watch something "moving", I'll go to the zoo or watch tv...

Blame it on my "old" age (a cool 27 years), or on my PC-experience (a cool 15 years), but I seem to have missed the "skin - viz" train, and I'm **** proud of it!

I'm sure this fits in this thread...

[Mr_Rabid_Teddybe...]

Some of my less computer savvy friends too; "hmmm, looks easy and simple, I like that". If they will ever find the preferences dialogue and all the configuration possibilities I don't know, but fb2k works out of the box to; drag and drop what you want to play from Explorer onto it. And theres play stop pause & skip buttons. Thats all they need too know, really.

While some of my more computer savvy friends are going "uh, no skins, ehy? What's this crap then?".

So you never know....

[PoisonDan]

Foobar2000

-Has skins
-Has visualizations
-Can play WMA files

Have any of the visualisations reached the quality of Milkdrop yet?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=188087