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Which interface for MPC discussion would you prefer?
Dibrom
post Jun 9 2002, 15:03
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Do you prefer a web based interface such as what HA provides?

Or would you prefer a text only mailing list?
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 9 2002, 15:12
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I stored the answer in a short up-to-date form:

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpp/img/answer.png


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-- Frank Klemm
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Dibrom
post Jun 9 2002, 15:19
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Hi Frank! biggrin.gif

I edited your message to use the URL tag instead of the IMG tag. It's ok though, cause I know that's what you meant the first time around smile.gif

Oh, and btw... I heard about your horrible netscape crash :/

www.mozilla.org <--- You can lead a horse to water, but you sure can't make them drink... eh?

Try a browser a little less buggy and a little more standard compliant. You might be surprised at how much better web-browsing suddenly works. . . . . biggrin.gif
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Garf
post Jun 9 2002, 15:35
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At the end of Frank's text there says: ' while the telephone counter is mercelessy ticking'.

I voted for a web based interface, but only because I am on a flat-rate 10Mbps connection. I remember when I was still on a per-second 33k6 connection, and I can understand how Frank feels.

If you pay for your internet time, usenet/email are much more convenient (and cheaper) than www.

--
GCP
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YinYang
post Jun 9 2002, 15:37
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Personally I don't care too much but can see the advantages in a text-form mailing list option. So for the Frank's sake I vote text. Besides I'm also going back to my own 56 modem soon, so...

Can't we have both options as previously suggested? Or is that (technically) too complicated?
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Dibrom
post Jun 9 2002, 15:46
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Garf
If you pay for your internet time, usenet/email are [b]much more convenient (and cheaper) than www.


Which is why there has been work to be able to offer both solutions here at HA. Obviously, this is more complex than just going straight mailing list or continuing to offer a web forum only, like we do now.

However, with every other message being a complaint about how the interface here totally sucks and this and that and refusing to attempt to work with us in the mean time at all (by upgrading to a non-broken browser), it is not very encouraging for the people putting the time in to make this possibility a reality. At this point it's continually bordering on flat out insults and rather than have this continue to be an issue, I feel it has gotten to the point where it really needs to be addressed more directly, via discussion.

My main interest here with the poll is to illustrate how many people would prefer one format over the other as a whole (and perhaps to draw a conclusion as to which format would then be more practical for use for the majority).

I have my assumptions as to which would be the most favored and yes, this is perhaps a bit skewed obviously since we are on a web based forum here already. However, the alternative being offered up would be to switch from a web forum to a mailing list, and so it's a valid choice to contemplate. I think that some may not realize this or realize the fact that the HA community may not even exist in it's current form if it were founded in a different format, even if this may happen to be more convenient to them as an individual. I'm interested to see what everyone else thinks of this matter though... cause it's possible that I'm wrong smile.gif
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mithrandir
post Jun 9 2002, 17:08
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Mailing lists seem so 1995. Then again, I've never used anything but unlimited Internet access plans and broadband connections...I know my habit too well to tolerate per-minute charges!
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silver_cpu
post Jun 9 2002, 17:20
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Well, a daily or twice-daily mailing of the posts here would be great for those that want it, but I'd rather use the web-based boards. I use IE6, and I've never had a problem with these boards. I also use cable internet, unlimited dialup before that, so the problems that Frank is having does not affect me. However, if there is only one solution, then I say let Frank get the benefit of mail, since he needs a solution that's good for him. I mean, why shaft the developer? I'd rather him have an easier time of things, since not everyone outside of the USA has a good internet experience. If, however, a web-board and mailing list would be possible, it'd make me a happy boy. Not only would I be able to check these boards, but I'd get daily notifications of changes that have gone on while I'm away.
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Ardax
post Jun 9 2002, 17:48
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I've never really been a big fan of mailing lists versus usenet. For public discussion forums, it just seems like a more appropriate solution.

That said, it would be nice to have a more efficient interface for the discussion. Web frontends have a lot of advantages, but for people wanting to do lots of discussion from the comfort of their own home, email or usenet is much more efficient, in my experience.

I noticed this float across freshmeat a few days ago: vNNTPd is Perl-based NNTP daemon that reads a vBulletin DB. Pretty early alpha though.
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kritip
post Jun 9 2002, 17:53
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I voted text,

when i was at my uni and in halls i had the benefit of T3 and 512K connections and the web based format was great for this.

now im back to 56K with only 50 hours a month the mailing list option seems more appealing but i understand that many people would prefer the web based option, just as i would if i were on a fast, non time restricted connection.

The best option in my opinion would be to have both mailing and web based forum but as this may be complex here a a few thoughts on the avaliable options as i see it.

Option A
Leave it as it is, all the members are using the site as it is, and although it may be more benneficial for some to use another system, it hasn't stopped them using the site so far!

Option B
Implement both, but it could be hard, error prome and far to complex.

Option C
Move over to only a mailing list.
However i think that many more modern internet users would not be interested in another format as they haven't used it before and so therfore it may deter new users and even lose current members. Not good!

option D
Maintain a web based site wqith the latest news, announcments, introduce some guides, FAQ's and downloads and move the disscussion over to mailing list. Therefore new users can see what its all about and get usefull information and any discussions or questions be carried out over a mialing list.

Perhaps a user editable FAQ system could be set up and the mailing list discussions arcived ont eh web as well.


Option E
One of probably many other ideas. wink.gif

These are just a fw of my thoughts and ideas, hope they are usefull!

Thanks a lot,

Kristian Tippins
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 9 2002, 17:55
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Dibrom
Hi Frank! biggrin.gif

I edited your message to use the URL tag instead of the IMG tag.  It's ok though, cause I know that's what you meant the first time around smile.gif

Oh, and btw... I heard about your horrible netscape crash :/


Netscape also provides features so you not need a crash to lost data.
Resizing the netscape window is enough if the webserver forces
a re-read of the sheet due to a no-cache tag. No-cache forces
consist data, but slows down processing on a slow connection,
because every item is reloaded, even full static images (the
hydrogenaudio logo for instance).

Also you generate a lot of traffic on the server site (I expect HA
has no volume free).

Also compare the following links:

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz

and

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html

First one uses server based compression.


--------------------
-- Frank Klemm
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Q!
post Jun 9 2002, 17:58
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Ok, I voted for mailing list even though I don't like them.

Not that I like don't like ph0rums, but I preffer plain text - a newsgroup would be great.


--------------------
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bluewer than blu...
post Jun 9 2002, 18:00
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I'm behind a simple 56Kbps line and I pay per hour as well, but I'm fully supporting the existence of this board. Personally speaking I do think that such forums offer far more features and convenient ways to communicate with other people than a plain mailing list. I've used both in the past and I know definitely which one I prefer...

Frank...I have a suggestion: Use Opera...you won't face any problem with the board. But the most important thing is that by hitting the key "G" you'll load the page without loading the graphics. It's an amazing feature that will save you from unecessary downloading...
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 9 2002, 18:14
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QUOTE
Originally posted by bluewer than blue
I'm behind a simple 56Kbps line and I pay per hour as well, but I'm fully supporting the existence of this board. Personally speaking I do think that such forums offer far more features and convenient ways to communicate with other people than a plain mailing list. I've used both in the past and I know definitely which one I prefer...

Frank...I have a suggestion: Use Opera...you won't face any problem with the board. But the most important thing is that by hitting the key "G" you'll load the page without loading the graphics. It's an amazing feature that will save you from unecessary downloading...


How to save an important article? (slrn: s <ENTER>)
How to score articles?
How to show threads in a useful way?
Why <b>I</b> must search information instead of automaically get information
How to avoid to see old messages again and again and again?
What I must do that every article is transmitted once and only once over the line?
How to use my favourite text editor to write messages?
How to write multiple text messages offline?
How to postpone articles?

Nearly every feature I like from the News is I'm missing here.

This has nothing to do with the web browser, which only "macht das Kraut fett".

Web boards as effective as polling ports or busy waits when
interrupt driven systems are possible.


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-- Frank Klemm
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kritip
post Jun 9 2002, 18:17
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Using the latest Mozilla and clearing all cache between tries,
the server side compressed page and uncompressed page took the following times:

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz -- 27.312

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html -- 25.25

actually worse!!


Kristian
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Garf
post Jun 9 2002, 18:55
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Curiously enough, the compressed link doesn't open correctly in IE5.5.

But, I always thought HA already used compression (mod_gzip). It doesn't?

--
GCP
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tangent
post Jun 9 2002, 19:11
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Yes it does, check out the logos at the bottom of the page, the second one, after the apache logo smile.gif
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Leto Atreides II
post Jun 9 2002, 19:22
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oops, posted this to the wrong thread earlier.. sad.gif

The site is completely database driven, no? How feasable is it for someone to write a script that takes the messages a user wants out of the database and sends them as an email? And vice versa, user can reply and depending on the subject the email gets put into the corresponding forum. Impossible? Improbable?

-Leto

edit: i see this has already been brought up.. doh.
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 9 2002, 19:39
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Garf
Curiously enough, the compressed link doesn't open correctly in IE5.5.

But, I always thought HA already used compression (mod_gzip). It doesn't?

-- 
GCP


Compressed links work with IE 5.0 (Win2KSP2), IE 6.0 (Win2KSP2),
NS 4.78 (LinuxIA32), NS 4.01 (LinuxIA32), NS 3.1 (LinuxIA32).

AFAIK this is a must for compliant Browsers since HTML 2.0.

Compressed like need 7 sec, uncompressed 11 sec using modem compression.


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-- Frank Klemm
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kuniklo
post Jun 9 2002, 20:26
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I vote for a text option, but only if it's a news format, not a mailing list.
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 9 2002, 21:50
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QUOTE
Originally posted by kuniklo
I vote for a text option, but only if it's a news format, not a mailing list.


News and Mailing list is nearly equivalent.

News:
- you can read from all over the world
- public
- you need access to a news server providing the group you want to read

Mail:
- more problems if you want to read it outside from you home/office
- more private
- more management effort


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smok3
post Jun 9 2002, 22:35
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hmm, dont want to be rude or something..., but did u know that musepack.tk is like 77492 bytes?, and i just need those 3 files... (plus some ugliest animated gifs i ever saw, some rotating *NEW* stuff) biggrin.gif

i vote for web btw.


--------------------
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung
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Dibrom
post Jun 9 2002, 22:42
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Frank Klemm

Netscape also provides features so you not need a crash to lost data.
Resizing the netscape window is enough if the webserver forces
a re-read of the sheet due to a no-cache tag.


Netscape has a bug that when resizing, it loses all css formatting. Because of that it is often necessary to reload the page for it to even be displayed properly.

If you were using a working browser, one that supported CSS properly, then you wouldn't see these kind of things. Your recent netscape crash was directly due to you using a non-working browser, yet somehow you blamed me for this.

So far you have not responded to any mention of the fact that you really should use a better browser if you are having these problems.

Why won't you upgrade?

QUOTE
[b]Also compare the following links:

  http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz

and

  http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html

First one uses server based compression.


What's your point? HA uses mod_gzip for apache (as you can see at the bottom of this page) and gzip compression in the php output. I'm well aware of server based compression.
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jeffster
post Jun 10 2002, 04:54
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Just like to add my .02 c worth here...

My preferred option would definately be a Newsgroup type arrangement.
I have a flat rate dial-up account (56k), so while I'm not penalized for the amount of time it takes to view and use the forum moneywise, as Frank is, it is slow and inefficient, and often frustrating trying to post a message (still have trouble staying logged in).

An example of a good working model I often think of the GRC newsgroups, which works well for me. I can't comment on mailing lists though as I have no experience of them.

Anyway that's just my preference, I'm happy to continue learning from and using the web-based forum otherwise.

Jeff
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Sawg
post Jun 10 2002, 05:41
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I think a News format would be nice, I am pretty sure there are web-front ends for News too, so you can have both.

But I though the "Subscribe to Forum" feature in the User CP sent out e-mails, or does on;y tell you that a thread was created/updated?
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