How to grab DVD-Audio? Options

[halleck]

All you have to do to get a 6 channel version is to go into windows control panel sound settings and change your speakers to 5.1 Doesnt even matter if you have got a stereo soundcard (I do) then the app will rip the 6 channel version if thats what you choose in the dvd menu. I have done a 6 channel wav from REM's In Time DVD at 96khz and a 192khz stereo version as well. Both worked but the 192khz version came out at double speed and needed a 200% stretch resample in Audition. Anyone else have this issue with the high res stereo tracks?


EDIT: After trying another 192khz, this time from the decrypted dvd rather than the original source, it worked fine.

Halleck

This post has been edited by halleck: Jul 9 2005, 07:16

[krabapple]

you think you'd really notice a audible difference? Doubt it.

I wouldn't go there. Why bother with DVD-A in the first place when there is already a multichannel DTS track

Good question. Someone should have asked the industry this a few years ago.

Recording or mastering at higher bitrates/sampling rates is technically defensible. Playback at >Redbook is probably pointless. Or do you really think you can hear stuff up above 24 kHz and need a dynamic range >96 dB for playback?

? Anyway, that's like selling someone a CD-DA when the source is really a 192kbps MP3. Most people wouldn't notice the difference, but how would they feel about it?

The difference between 'higher res' DVD-A and 48/24 is far less likely to be audible than CD-DA vs 193 kbps mp3. The analogy really doesn't hold.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Jul 9 2005, 06:14

[Sgt_Strider]

I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?

Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.

Bump, I'm hoping someone can answer the questions above. Thanks.

[skamp]

I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?

Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.

Bump, I'm hoping someone can answer the questions above. Thanks.

I highly doubt it, because the tools aren't extracting the audio the way EAC does it. The tools fire up WinDVD, which plays the audio back, and that is what is being recorded to the hard drive. I've also come to doubt the reliability of the tools: I launched PPCMRipper with '192000' as argument on 96000Hz content, and the frequency analysis of the resulting .wav files looked like as if it was genuine 192kHz content as well...

Anyway, the only way I can think of to make sure that the resulting .wav files are bit perfect copies, would be to be able to decode .mlp files (extracted with DVD-A Explorer) and compare them to the files extracted by PPCMRipper. But an MLP encoder/decoder costs $2,500, and if you had one, you wouldn't be using PPCMRipper in the first place :-/

I remember Roberto saying he had a copy of a MLP decoder: maybe he could do such a test, for the rest of us who don't own one?

[rjamorim]

I remember Roberto saying he had a copy of a MLP decoder: maybe he could do such a test, for the rest of us who don't own one?

I don't own a DVD-A.

And even if I did, in light of recent events, I wouldn't rip it and announce my feat.

[cynix]

I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?

I imagine it would be bit-perfect, because dvdaripper is essentially copying (with decryption) some files from a DVD. Being "files", they must be identical to the source. It's like copying a .zip file from a DVD - if it's not bit-perfect then you'd have big trouble.

[Frank Klemm]

2) any new versions of WinDVD become compromised and the big one

Even if Intervideo makes their player unpatcheable, you can always count on old versions. The only risk is that discs being pressed from now on might refuse WinDVD's decrypting key.

A disc can't refuse a decryption key. A disc is a passive device.

Disc in the future may not contain the encrypted Media key for WinDVD's decrypting key,
so WinDVD can't calculate the Media key anymore.

Please try to use an exact language.

[skamp]

I imagine it would be bit-perfect, because dvdaripper is essentially copying (with decryption) some files from a DVD. Being "files", they must be identical to the source. It's like copying a .zip file from a DVD - if it's not bit-perfect then you'd have big trouble.

We're talking about the resulting .wav files, which are generated by having the decrypted DVD-A played back by WinDVD. Since I don't know exactly what's going in on during that process, I'm not sure of anything. Especially since setting up WinDVD correctly for playback is an important part of the process. Anyway it certainly can't be compared to lossless digital extraction as with .zip or .flac files.

[skamp]

I don't own a DVD-A.

And even if I did, in light of recent events, I wouldn't rip it and announce my feat.

The one guy who gets a copy of a MLP decoder, doesn't own a DVD-A :/
Seriously though, I understand your reserve about that, you've already taken some substantial risks by hosting the tools and advertising them on this forum. But for what it's worth, a decoder (MLPPROOF.exe in your case, if I'm not mistaken) should not leave any kind of watermarking on the resulting files...

[rjamorim]

Please try to use an exact language.

I missed you too, Frank

[rjamorim]

This is the stuff I have to deal with now:
http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png

I wonder if being sued wouldn't have been nicer :B

[skamp]

This is the stuff I have to deal with now:
http://www.rarewares.org/rja/mail1.png

I've seen this kind of behaviour for years, yet I still can't picture it IRL. What kind of moron actually talks like that? or even writes that way?

[Frank Klemm]

Please try to use an exact language.

I missed you too, Frank

Hi Roberto.
Do you still have 10 fingers on your hands? ;-)

This post has been edited by Frank Klemm: Jul 9 2005, 22:12

[rjamorim]

Hi Roberto.
Do you still have 10 fingers on your hand? ;-)

Honestly, I have 10 in both my handS. Only five in each hand... :-B


Edit: And - sorry if I don't get it but - what was the purpose of that question?

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Jul 9 2005, 22:25

[Borisz]

Amazing, this is what I get for not visiting for a few days - I miss out the chance to properly extract my few DVDA discs.

Oh well, I guess it wouldn't make a difference anyway, on my crappy SB Live. (I'm just overly anal about it, hehe. And I can't even properly get the ac3/dts streams out of some discs either, because they are parts of the menu itself... blah)

edit: kekeke nevermind, it DID got around on the web quite fast.

This post has been edited by Borisz: Jul 10 2005, 02:03

[cynix]

We're talking about the resulting .wav files, which are generated by having the decrypted DVD-A played back by WinDVD. Since I don't know exactly what's going in on during that process, I'm not sure of anything. Especially since setting up WinDVD correctly for playback is an important part of the process. Anyway it certainly can't be compared to lossless digital extraction as with .zip or .flac files.

If a file can be perfectly copied, it can be perfectly decoded. Unless the decoder is buggy...

It's like copying a password-protected .zip file from DVD to your hard drive, removing the password, burning it on another DVD, then extracting its content. As long as the file can be perfectly copied back and forth between your hard drive and the DVD, the contents are safe.

I guess you can test its bit-perfectness by repeating the ripping process multiple times and comparing the results.

edit: typos

This post has been edited by cynix: Jul 9 2005, 23:25

[Mono]

I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?

Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.

Bump, I'm hoping someone can answer the questions above. Thanks.

What, am I not important enough for you to read my post?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=311874

I'm just wondering when using the method to copy DVD-Audio, is it exactly bit for bit perfect?

Compared to copying CD audio, some drives can and some can't copy audio bit for bit perfect. Thanks.

I haven't tried it out, but I imagine it would. DVD-Audio, unlike CD-Audio, is stored as data on a DVD. Therefore it won't have the issues that CD-Audio streams have.

Edit: I would assume from other recent posts that this is as lossless as using an audio recording program (like TotalRecorder) to save audio from CDs. Perhaps someday the relevant parts of WinDVD could be extracted and it would be easy to make bit-perfect DVD-A rips.

This post has been edited by Mono: Jul 10 2005, 01:02

[icedragon]

Recording or mastering at higher bitrates/sampling rates is technically defensible.  Playback at >Redbook is probably pointless.  Or do you really think you can hear stuff up above 24 kHz and need a dynamic range >96 dB for playback?

If the only issue at hand was frequency response, then that'd be true. There are also issues of impulse response, which has been shown to be audible up to an 80khz equivalency in regards to time domain placement and soundstage; and also the fact that the "96dB" number only happens 'in a perfect world'.

It doesn't take much to make a believer out of someone who's a member of the "Good Enough Police", some of whom even say "32khz/14bit is good enough!". Again, maybe in a perfect world, with perfect mastering.

Have you ever seen an impulse, quick transient (pin drop) or series of quick transients (guitar strum) go in and out of 44.1/16, or even go into 192/24 and then be -resampled and redithered- to 44.1/16?

Try recording a 10khz square wave at 44.1/16 versus 192/24. Try looking at the pre and post echo of a 10uS 'click' at 44.1/16 vs 192/24. Record a 980hz sine at even 48/24 and resample to 44.1, and drop bit depth to 16 from 24 without dither. Look at the frequency response and aliasing. And then do the same WITH noise shaping and notice how much noise you have to *add* to shift energies in the frequency domain away from that aliasing.

This will fall on "deaf" ears I'm sure; but I"m just so tired of hearing the "44.1/16 is more than we'll EVER need" defense. Either your playback setup is as cheap as a pair of iPod earbuds, or your ACTUAL beef is with the fact that higher resolution formats and systems are either one, too "expensive", or two, too "copy protected".

44.1/16 would be an OK delivery method if the mastering steps going into it were PERFECT, and the resultant output actually *was* a slow-rolloff, 20-20khz 96dB signal. In actuality, this is rarely the case, and as I said, it would be "good" or "ok" not great. I could go on for hours about this; 44.1/16 allows for very little "wiggle room" in the final product, and on sources that are mastered in a mediocre manner, the result is horrendous.

Nothing like compressed 8-bit equivalency with a brickwall cutoff filter to sound oh-so-pleasant. (I don't know who the record companies employ to mix and master these days, but they -must- be going for the cheapest bidder or the guy with the best beer.) HR PCM has its place in the output chain beyond high frequencies and 'bat hearing'. And this sort of proof doesnt lay in the realm of voodoo and incident waves; the benefits described are strictly in the audible region.

This post has been edited by icedragon: Jul 10 2005, 02:05

[Sgt_Strider]

In other words no one here have the capability to show that the copy is a bit for bit identical to the DVD-A?

[Borisz]

Question: is it possible to rip CPPM protected DVDS discs, WITHOUT reburning them? I lack blank discs (and the required double layer discs due to the size and sector order, or even a DL burner for that matter) to do that.

Or can DAEmon mount the physical files created by Gear Pro? It does not list dv1 files as supported ones...

edit: Daemon CAN progress the dv1 files. And it plays fine in winDVD from that. With the "silence after 30 secs" protection though.

This post has been edited by Borisz: Jul 10 2005, 03:13

[Borisz]

In other words no one here have the capability to show that the copy is a bit for bit identical to the DVD-A?

No one here has a proper MLP decoder, so no one can compare the decrypted files to the professional decoded ones.

so yea, I mean, no, no one can. But it would be a safe bet if you ask me.
Perhaps the author of these tools could be asked about this?

[rjamorim]

No one here has a proper MLP decoder, so no one can compare the decrypted files to the professional decoded ones.

so yea, I mean, no, no one can. But it would be a safe bet if you ask me.
Perhaps the author of these tools could be asked about this?

Good luck finding him, and then, getting him to answer you

He got very, very freaked out with the publicity.

[Borisz]

Well, I kinda thought that you could've asked this - but I guess you can't contact him anymore then.

back to ripping. Is it normal that the channels are all mixed up in the extracted wavs?

[firewire_666]

DaemonTools can mount the Gear Images

[Cyaneyes]

Folks, especially cyaneyes (if you're still there): What about the mastering quality of DVD-As, now that you can analyse it in a wav editor ?

Sorry.. I skipped out for a couple days

The only two samples I have access to are the Doors and Yes clips posted earlier in this thread.. I looked for DVD-As at the local music store but was unsurprisingly not sucessful at finding any.

I have an order in for a couple from an online store (AcousticSounds) that seems to stock 300-500 of them. I'm looking forward to analyzing Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing". The CD is smashed, clipped and limited to all hell (-9.78 for a prog rock album!) I don't expect the stereo DVD-A track will be much better, but I have high hopes for the 5.1 mix, which I'll then convert to stereo with foobar. I'll be sure to report back when they arrive.

I don't own a DVD-A.

And even if I did, in light of recent events, I wouldn't rip it and announce my feat.

Or... maybe I'll play it safe and send you a PM.