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Embedded Album Art with WavPack
fearan
post Jan 14 2006, 20:47
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I was wondering if there was a way to store album art in Wavpack files, so that a software audio player could read it and display it. If this is possible, what audio players support it, and how can it be done?
Thanks
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bryant
post Jan 15 2006, 01:47
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QUOTE (fearan @ Jan 14 2006, 11:47 AM)
I was wondering if there was a way to store album art in Wavpack files, so that a software audio player could read it and display it.  If this is possible, what audio players support it, and how can it be done?
Thanks
*

There's no technical reason this can't be done because the APEv2 tags can support large binary items like images.

However, I don't know which taggers allow putting those kind of things in tags, and I don't know which players that support WavPack also support image display.

If you find out (or if anyone else knows) I would like to hear about it... smile.gif
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SoldierAnt
post Jan 16 2006, 02:50
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According to this page, the latest Godfather beta (0.71 beta 2) contains "Cover art support for APEv2 tags (using the exact same format of the ID3 APIC frame)."

Assuming the software works as promised (and the Godfather has a good track record as one of the better tagging programs out there), the only hurdle left would be to find a player that will identify the image in the tag and display it correctly.

Halfway there . . . dry.gif

This post has been edited by SoldierAnt: Jan 16 2006, 02:55
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Caroliano
post Jan 16 2006, 04:18
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You can put Wavpack in Matroska also, but I don't know how is the suport for it in audio players....
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SoldierAnt
post Jan 16 2006, 09:35
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I just tried it, and the Godfather 0.71 beta will embed a cover art image in a Wavpack tag. smile.gif The bad news is that none of the WinAmp cover art plugins on my PC could read the APEv2-embedded image. sad.gif I suspect that APEv2 support generally isn't a huge priority for most mainstream media players, much less image support.

You might try asking the foobar2000 gurus if there's a way to display a cover art image from an APEv2 tag, but the answer is probably no (the idea of embedding cover art in tags is a bit controversial if you're a purist, as many foobar2000 users are). biggrin.gif

If you want to have album art in your lossless files, you might want to consider migrating to Apple lossless, which uses the same tag structure as iTunes AAC. iTunes will detect and display any cover art saved to an Apple encoded file, and so will WinAmp if you install the NowPlaying plugin (I don't think there's an Apple lossless plugin for WinAmp yet, but I could be wrong).

This post has been edited by SoldierAnt: Jan 16 2006, 09:38
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spoon
post Jan 16 2006, 10:51
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>"Cover art support for APEv2 tags (using the exact same format of the ID3 APIC frame)."

That is a good idea, we will support the same (an album art for APE2 should be specific to the tag rather than audio format it is stored in).


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fearan
post Jan 18 2006, 02:15
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QUOTE (SoldierAnt @ Jan 15 2006, 08:50 PM)
According to this page, the latest Godfather beta (0.71 beta 2) contains "Cover art support for APEv2 tags (using the exact same format of the ID3 APIC frame)."

Assuming the software works as promised (and the Godfather has a good track record as one of the better tagging programs out there), the only hurdle left would be to find a player that will identify the image in the tag and display it correctly.

Halfway there . . .  dry.gif
*

I see... but it looks like it's only for lossy codecs... am i mistaken? it didn't say wavpack anywhere on the page
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fearan
post Jan 18 2006, 02:20
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QUOTE (SoldierAnt @ Jan 16 2006, 03:35 AM)
I just tried it, and the Godfather 0.71 beta will embed a cover art image in a Wavpack tag.  smile.gif  The bad news is that none of the WinAmp cover art plugins on my PC could read the APEv2-embedded image.  sad.gif  I suspect that APEv2 support generally isn't a huge priority for most mainstream media players, much less image support.

You might try asking the foobar2000 gurus if there's a way to display a cover art image from an APEv2 tag, but the answer is probably no (the idea of embedding cover art in tags is a bit controversial if you're a purist, as many foobar2000 users are).  biggrin.gif

If you want to have album art in your lossless files, you might want to consider migrating to Apple lossless, which uses the same tag structure as iTunes AAC.  iTunes will detect and display any cover art saved to an Apple encoded file, and so will WinAmp if you install the NowPlaying plugin (I don't think there's an Apple lossless plugin for WinAmp yet, but I could be wrong).
*

apple lossless does not do nearly as many things as wavpack though... i chose wavpack for its flexibility. plus, I really love using replaygain on my files, as they are all at the same volume now! it's great, i know, and i don't want to leave it.
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fearan
post Jan 18 2006, 02:31
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QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 16 2006, 04:51 AM)
>"Cover art support for APEv2 tags (using the exact same format of the ID3 APIC frame)."

That is a good idea, we will support the same (an album art for APE2 should be specific to the tag rather than audio format it is stored in).
*

I see... but for winamp, i think the support for each file type's tags is determined by the input plugin... i don't think they have a unified apev2 tag supporter, though it would be nice... anyway, this means wavpack would have to support embedded album art in its provided winamp plugin, not winamp or apev2.

This post has been edited by fearan: Jan 18 2006, 02:32
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fearan
post Jan 22 2006, 02:16
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QUOTE (fearan @ Jan 17 2006, 08:31 PM)
QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 16 2006, 04:51 AM)
>"Cover art support for APEv2 tags (using the exact same format of the ID3 APIC frame)."

That is a good idea, we will support the same (an album art for APE2 should be specific to the tag rather than audio format it is stored in).
*

I see... but for winamp, i think the support for each file type's tags is determined by the input plugin... i don't think they have a unified apev2 tag supporter, though it would be nice... anyway, this means wavpack would have to support embedded album art in its provided winamp plugin, not winamp or apev2.
*


Okay... I got the GodFather, and I got all the info for an album, including the Album Art, and I'm ready to start tagging, but I can't see a button that will tag using the selected information. I used freedb for info, and amazon.com for album art. I just need to tag-- but how?
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DARcode
post Jan 24 2006, 11:13
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As pointed out by guruboolez the Winamp WavPack plug-in doesn't allow tag editing and david has PM'd me for the winamp plugin with tag editing--I am accepting patches!, so isn't this a jolly good time to implement that and what's been requested in this thread biggrin.gif?

Any developers? Sorry, I'm not one crying.gif (I'm a network admin).


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Alex B
post Jan 24 2006, 13:55
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QUOTE (bryant @ Jan 15 2006, 02:47 AM)
QUOTE (fearan @ Jan 14 2006, 11:47 AM)
I was wondering if there was a way to store album art in Wavpack files, so that a software audio player could read it and display it.  If this is possible, what audio players support it, and how can it be done?
Thanks
*


There's no technical reason this can't be done because the APEv2 tags can support large binary items like images.

However, I don't know which taggers allow putting those kind of things in tags, and I don't know which players that support WavPack also support image display.

If you find out (or if anyone else knows) I would like to hear about it... smile.gif
*

You may want to check out these two samples: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=40860


The samples (ape and mpc) have embedded cover art in APE v2 tags. I used J. River Media Center 11.1 for adding the cover art. The program has an option for using embedded or linked cover art. Matt Ashland (from J. River) developed this system for Monkey's Audio files years ago. I suppose they use identical tagging for Musepack files too.


BTW, there is no WavPack decoder plug-in for MC yet. It has been requested a few times at J. River Forum. A Media Center user Scot Thompson made recently an excellent new FLAC encoder/decoder plug-in set, but WavPack support exists only through DirectShow filters without tagging support. Would you be interested to help if someone would like to start a WavPack plug-in project?


Edit: added Quote & BTW, Edit 2: typo

This post has been edited by Alex B: Jan 24 2006, 15:24


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Alex B
post Jan 24 2006, 14:51
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It seems that the GodFather developer has chosen a different tag.

Tag displays from Media Center 11.1:

MC 11.1 embedded cover art
QUOTE
Monkey's Audio 3.99 (high)
Format: 44.1 khz, 16 bit, 2 ch
Length: 0:02
Compression: 72.54% (0.3 MB / 0.4 MB)
Tag: APE Tag 2.00 (2090 bytes)
  Track: 4
  Year: 2005
  Genre: Electronic
  Artist: Kraftwerk
  Album: Cover Art Test
  Tool Version: 11.1.102
  Tool Name: Media Center
  Title: Men Machine Live
  Media Jukebox: Date: 38353
  Cover Art (front): <too large to display>

The GodFather embedded cover art
QUOTE
Monkey's Audio 3.99 (high)
Format: 44.1 khz, 16 bit, 2 ch
Length: 0:02
Compression: 76.90% (0.3 MB / 0.4 MB)
Tag: APE Tag 2.00 (22422 bytes)
  Track: 4
  Artist: Kraftwerk
  Album: Cover Art Test
  Title: Men Machine Live
  Year: 2005
  Genre: Electronic
  Tool Version: 11.1.102
  Tool Name: Media Center
  Media Jukebox: Date: 38353
  APIC: <too large to display>


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Alex B
post Jan 24 2006, 22:51
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Just by looking the tag names "Cover Art (front)" makes more sense to me than "APIC". "Cover Art (back)", "Cover Art (inlay)" etc would be natural extensions to it. Since APE tags have nothing to do with ID3 I think the choice is free.

If there are no players that support APIC in APEv2 tags yet then the tag name that was invented by the original creator of APE tags should be considered as a standard. At least it is the only existing standard for Monkey's Audio files and perhaps for Musepack too. Because JRMC has had embedded APE v2 cover art support at least three years probably a lot of files around the globe are tagged with that standard.

Godfather 0.71 beta is a beta and probably the author would be willing change the tag if needed for getting better compatibility.


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fearan
post Jan 24 2006, 23:36
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I have found a way to display Album Art in Winamp... but it doesn't utilize APEv2 tags to get the image. I put the cover pics in the album folder and downloaded a winamp plugin that can make use of that. I did the same for foobar2000.
here they are:


Winamp: http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details.php?id=138586

Foobar2000: (i don't remember where i got it, but it wasn't at hydrogenaudio... the link was broken when i tried it.)
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soiaf
post Jan 24 2006, 23:49
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QUOTE (Alex B @ Jan 24 2006, 10:51 PM)
Because JRMC has had embedded APE v2 cover art support at least three years probably a lot of files around the globe are tagged with that standard.
*


Do you have any more sample files (with say a PNG image embedded in it)?
I actually wrote some code to extract the cover art based on using an APIC tag, but it definitely makes sense to support the JRMC approach.

The structure of the tag seems very simple, it seems to be the filename, then a null seperator, then the actual data of the file (a JPG in the case of your sample files)
But another sample file with, say, PNG would be very useful to double-check this is all that is required.
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Alex B
post Jan 25 2006, 00:39
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QUOTE (soiaf @ Jan 25 2006, 12:49 AM)
Do you have any more sample files (with say a PNG image embedded in it)?
I actually wrote some code to extract the cover art based on using an APIC tag, but it definitely makes sense to support the JRMC approach.

The structure of the tag seems very simple, it seems to be the filename, then a null seperator, then the actual data of the file (a JPG in the case of your sample files)
But another sample file with, say, PNG would be very useful to double-check this is all that is required.
*

I added gif and png samples: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=40860.

If you are on Windows, you may want to try the function by yourself. JRMC has a 30-day try out period. The latest release candidate of v. 11.1 is available at the user forum, currently v. 11.1.105: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3.0. (A word of warning: It may cause addiction.)


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soiaf
post Jan 25 2006, 01:08
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QUOTE (Alex B @ Jan 25 2006, 12:39 AM)


Thanks for that, they're all done the same way as JPG (as expected).
Good choice of PNG image smile.gif
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spoon
post Jan 25 2006, 10:52
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>"Because JRMC has had embedded APE v2 cover art support at least three years ......with that standard"

Agreed, that seems to be the one to support, anyone told TGF author?

Speaking of other lossless formats, what is the standard for FLAC files? (embedding art).


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Alex B
post Jan 25 2006, 14:03
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QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 25 2006, 11:52 AM)
... anyone told TGF author?
*

I did. ( http://com1.runboard.com/bthegodfathermp3f...tsquestions.t20 )


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SoldierAnt
post Jan 26 2006, 03:08
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QUOTE (fearan @ Jan 24 2006, 05:36 PM)
I have found a way to display Album Art in Winamp... but it doesn't utilize APEv2 tags to get the image.  I put the cover pics in the album folder and downloaded a winamp plugin that can make use of that.  I did the same for foobar2000. 


Storing the album art files in the same folder is one solution, and some people are okay with mixing jpegs in with their music. However, this approach only works if you're careful about naming the pictures properly, or you keep your music directory organized in certain ways (e.g., by CD).

The average listener just wants to play a song and see the cover art pop up automatically, without fiddling with multiple files. Embedding the art in tags is the easiest way of doing this, even if you do lose a (very small) amount of disk space from inserting the same picture multiple times.

After all, if lossless codecs like Wavpack or Monkey's Audio are ever going to broaden their appeal beyond a small community of enthusiasts, they need to offer the same (or similar) features as more popular lossy formats like MP3 or iTunes AAC. Embedded cover art is an example of such a feature.

Therefore, it's good to see the developers hashing out the details of cover art in APEv2 tags right now, while lossless audio is still in its adolescence, instead of letting this idea sit on the back burner any longer. cool.gif
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fearan
post Jan 26 2006, 03:24
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QUOTE (SoldierAnt @ Jan 25 2006, 09:08 PM)
QUOTE (fearan @ Jan 24 2006, 05:36 PM)
I have found a way to display Album Art in Winamp... but it doesn't utilize APEv2 tags to get the image.  I put the cover pics in the album folder and downloaded a winamp plugin that can make use of that.  I did the same for foobar2000. 


Storing the album art files in the same folder is one solution, and some people are okay with mixing jpegs in with their music. However, this approach only works if you're careful about naming the pictures properly, or you keep your music directory organized in certain ways (e.g., by CD).

I set up the program so that it will display any picture in the folder. In my case, there is only one picture per folder, so this works quite well. I also keep my music organized by "My Music\Artist\Album\##. Title.wv". This is very organized, and winamp's media library loves it.
QUOTE
The average listener just wants to play a song and see the cover art pop up automatically, without fiddling with multiple files.  Embedding the art in tags is the easiest way of doing this, even if you do lose a (very small) amount of disk space from inserting the same picture multiple times.

I actually did embed album art in each file, in addition to saving the picture in the folder.
QUOTE
After all, if lossless codecs like Wavpack or Monkey's Audio are ever going to broaden their appeal beyond a small community of enthusiasts, they need to offer the same (or similar) features as more popular lossy formats like MP3 or iTunes AAC.  Embedded cover art is an example of such a feature. 

Wavpack is very versatile, as shown in the wiki. That's why I chose it. I only wish it had player support! I'd buy one... and besides, APEv2 is the component that needs to support album art, not the codec itself.
QUOTE
Therefore, it's good to see the developers hashing out the details of cover art in APEv2 tags right now, while lossless audio is still in its adolescence, instead of letting this idea sit on the back burner any longer. cool.gif
*

I think it should be up to APEv2 developers to embed album art in their tag, and I think that the lossless codecs should just implement the latest version of the tag, rather than codec-specific developers working on a tag system. That way, all codecs would have the same support for the same tags, making the efficiency and features of the codec the only thing the codec developers need to worry about, imho.
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DARcode
post Jan 30 2006, 12:32
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No dev having a look into this yet? sad.gif


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ChristianHJW
post Jan 30 2006, 19:44
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Album Art is already possible for Wavpack when being put into matroska container (MKA).

Christian
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beto
post Jan 30 2006, 20:32
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matroska with wavpack does not playback in foobar. dry.gif Do you know if this will ever be fixed?
I am not aware of directshow players that support album art embedded in matroska. If you know of any, please point them out.


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