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Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Kurt S
post Apr 7 2006, 23:58
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So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed. The fidelity was horrible. It sounded like someone ran it through an EQ and made the sliders look like a bell curve. No low end to speak of and the highs weren't any better. I A/B'ed it against the LP I had and the difference was night and day. The LP was crisp and clear with good bass. Well I've gotten back into this album but even after running it through some EQ I'm still not happy with the results.

My question is, has anyone purchased this album recently and if so, what is your opinion of the quality.

PS. I know the first thing I'm going to hear is if I have A/B'ed it recently. I have not. I don't have a turntable anymore but if anyone questions what I'm hearing, I would be glad to post a small sample for you to listen to.
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kennedyb4
post Apr 8 2006, 00:23
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QUOTE (Kurt S @ Apr 7 2006, 05:58 PM) *
So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed. The fidelity was horrible. It sounded like someone ran it through an EQ and made the sliders look like a bell curve. No low end to speak of and the highs weren't any better. I A/B'ed it against the LP I had and the difference was night and day. The LP was crisp and clear with good bass. Well I've gotten back into this album but even after running it through some EQ I'm still not happy with the results.

My question is, has anyone purchased this album recently and if so, what is your opinion of the quality.

PS. I know the first thing I'm going to hear is if I have A/B'ed it recently. I have not. I don't have a turntable anymore but if anyone questions what I'm hearing, I would be glad to post a small sample for you to listen to.



Hi. I have an APS 3.90 copy from their box set collection. It is plagued by analog hiss, worse than their other discs IMO.

Overall though, I do not have the same perceptions you are having. The overall presence is good and the bass is adequate. Cymbals and guitars are definitely forward in the soundfield but not enough to account for the eq curve you describe. I would rate it overall as 7.0 of 10 for quality in general.

I did not listen to all the songs. Two from each disc were auditioned.
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audioflex
post Apr 8 2006, 07:30
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i have this CD....sounds just fine.
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aLii
post Apr 8 2006, 18:07
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I have the remastered CD - dunno when exactly it was remastered, but I've had it since about 1998 or so. The sound quality is generally good, but there is a fair amount of clipping present - I'm interested to hear whether clipping is present on the vinyl?
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Axon
post Apr 8 2006, 18:21
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I have the box set and the original pressing vinyl, so I might be able to give a comparison a whirl. I didn't think the '95 remasters were that bad compared to the wax.
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Kurt S
post Apr 9 2006, 21:38
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Ok, it looks like the newer versons are mastered better. I'll go get a new copy. Thanks for your responses.
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krabapple
post Apr 10 2006, 05:50
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This was never anything near an 'audiophile quality' recording in the first place. But here's what the original CD version of 'The Rover' (top) looks like compared to the George Marino/Jimmy Page remaster, from the 10-CD Complete boxed set (bottom). The latter sounds better to me, though it's clearly been dynamically compressed (comparison to a normalized version of the older CD track, not shown, bears this out). There is a little clipping but not as much as it looks like from this low-rez image; when you magnify the waveform there turns out to be few true 'flat tops' and they are short -- just a few samples long -- where they do occur.




This post has been edited by krabapple: Apr 10 2006, 05:51
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chelrob
post Apr 10 2006, 07:43
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The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.
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Triza
post Apr 10 2006, 15:33
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QUOTE (chelrob @ Apr 9 2006, 10:43 PM) *
The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.


Wrong.

I remember I looked at this since I had almost all the studio album of the 1994 remasters. They have indentical replaygain numbers with the boxset, which I also own. I did not do bit comparison, because it was obvious that they must be extremely similar.

BTW I had very 1st CD release of the Physical Graffiti by Swan Song, and indeed it did sound pretty bad. I have not listened to the box-set one, but indeed I can confirm Kurt's observation.

Triza
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My name is Mud
post Apr 10 2006, 20:18
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I've got the same version as krabapple, and it sounds just fine to me (and rather better than my original vinyl release).


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cliveb
post Apr 11 2006, 11:32
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QUOTE (Triza @ Apr 10 2006, 03:33 PM) *
QUOTE (chelrob @ Apr 9 2006, 10:43 PM) *

The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.

I remember I looked at this since I had almost all the studio album of the 1994 remasters. They have indentical replaygain numbers with the boxset, which I also own. I did not do bit comparison, because it was obvious that they must be extremely similar.

The whole Zeppelin remastering saga is very confusing. I've heard it on good authority that the currently available remastered individual albums are identical to the 10CD box set. I only own the 10CD box set and the previous "Remasters" sets (one 4CD, one 2CD). I had always felt that the earlier "Remasters" sets sounded better, and assumed that the later 10CD set had been subjected to some additional compression.

Then I did some more investigation, and discovered that:
a) the channels are swapped between the two sets on some tracks (!)
b) the levels are very slightly lower on the earlier "Remasters"
c) after re-normalising both, they are NOT bit-identical
d) the two sets contain identical digital transfer glitches

From this evidence, I conclude that the two sets of remasters are derived from the same initial digital transfer (presumably the one done by Page & Marino), but that the later 10CD set has been further "tweaked" in some unknown way. Despite this, after channel correction and level-matching, I failed to distinguish them in an ABX. I conclude that my previous belief that the earlier set sounded better was due to the very slight level differences.
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Triza
post Apr 11 2006, 15:31
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cliveb, this is very informative post. Thank you. I am very grateful that you took the trouble.

I pondered a lot if I should buy the earlier sets. After this post I will probably not.

You say that the earier releases have slightly lower level. How much lower approximately? Less than a 1dB?

Triza
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UObean
post Apr 11 2006, 15:55
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Personally I like the older non-remastered versions better. The treble just sounds unnatural on the remasters. The original cd's while quieter, sound more dynamic to me.
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cliveb
post Apr 11 2006, 16:33
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QUOTE (Triza @ Apr 11 2006, 03:31 PM) *
You say that the earier releases have slightly lower level. How much lower approximately? Less than a 1dB?

Yes, less than 1dB. There's more details of what I did included as part of this earlier thread.

But to briefly summarise, I concentrated mainly on the track "Good Times Bad Times":
Remasters: replaygain = -5.67; peak(L/R) = -0.4/-0.5
10CD set: replygain = -6.18; peak(L/R) = 0/0
After normalising the remasters to peak at 0/0, the RMS levels were close but subtly different: -14.6/-14.2 for Remasters and -14.1/-14.4 for the 10CD set.
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krabapple
post Apr 13 2006, 06:20
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QUOTE (chelrob @ Apr 10 2006, 02:43 AM) *
The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.


The only remasterings I've been able to verify are

first CD --> revised first CD (this fixed the missing 'cough' at the end of 'In My Time of Dying' but AFAIK no other changes were made)

revised first CD --> two 'crop circle' boxed sets

'crop circle' boxed sets --> 10 CD set (this information surprised me, but Clive has the data to back it up)

The individual CDs that came out after the 10-box are simply clones of the 10-box albums. So was a 'mini LP sleeve' version from Europe that I checked. I know of no 1994 remastering.

The more recent compilations that came out a year or two ago, I can't speak to; I would not be surprised if
they had been 'modernized' still more.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Apr 13 2006, 06:48
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randal1013
post Apr 13 2006, 16:51
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QUOTE (audioflex @ Apr 8 2006, 02:30 AM) *
i have this CD....sounds just fine.

same here.
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TomGroove
post Apr 15 2006, 11:12
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just listening again to my 10 Box set, don't think, that there is heavy remastering versus the vinyl version.
It is not the best sound ever heard, but still pretty good music.

Just listen to earlier Bruce Springsteen, if you want worse recording :-)

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krabapple
post Nov 20 2006, 20:36
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QUOTE (cliveb @ Apr 11 2006, 10:33) *
QUOTE (Triza @ Apr 11 2006, 03:31 PM) *
You say that the earier releases have slightly lower level. How much lower approximately? Less than a 1dB?

Yes, less than 1dB. There's more details of what I did included as part of this earlier thread.

But to briefly summarise, I concentrated mainly on the track "Good Times Bad Times":
Remasters: replaygain = -5.67; peak(L/R) = -0.4/-0.5
10CD set: replygain = -6.18; peak(L/R) = 0/0
After normalising the remasters to peak at 0/0, the RMS levels were close but subtly different: -14.6/-14.2 for Remasters and -14.1/-14.4 for the 10CD set.



Clive,
resurrencting this thread becuase I see over on Hoffman's forum that someone is claiming an average 3dB difference between the crop circles versions and the 10 CD box versions of LZ tracks.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...mp;postcount=47

wondering if you can verify, since your measured differences were much less than that. Did you check many of the other tracks on the box?
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greynol
post Nov 21 2006, 01:56
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Here are some numbers for you. Sorry that I don't have Box Set #2.

CODE
1990     1993
Box      CSR      Track                  Diff.
-4.12    -7.31    Custard Pie            3.19
-4.62    -7.14    Houses of the Holy     2.52
-4.88    -6.37    In My Time of Dying    1.49
-4.40    -4.93    In the Light           0.53
-5.35    -5.86    Kashmir                0.51
-4.07    -4.68    Ten Years Gone         0.61
-4.29    -6.07    The Wanton Song        1.78
-5.78    -7.33    Trampled Under Foot    1.55


This post has been edited by greynol: Nov 21 2006, 01:58


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krabapple
post Nov 21 2006, 04:46
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Not sure the guy on SH.tv is talking about replaygain value differences, though I'm grateful to have that data. Can you post RMS avg and peak values for the crop circle tracks? I can generate them for the 10-CDbox versions.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Nov 21 2006, 04:48
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chelrob
post Nov 21 2006, 05:39
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. Never mind

This post has been edited by chelrob: Nov 21 2006, 05:42
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Lysander
post Nov 21 2006, 08:32
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How about the best of discs? What was done to them?
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cliveb
post Nov 21 2006, 10:32
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Nov 21 2006, 03:46) *
Not sure the guy on SH.tv is talking about replaygain value differences, though I'm grateful to have that data. Can you post RMS avg and peak values for the crop circle tracks? I can generate them for the 10-CDbox versions.

Sorry, only just seen this resurrected thread. Greynol's figures seem to show that there are much bigger differences on some tracks than I had measured for "Good Times Bad Times". I don't remember why I chose that particular track - it was probably just convenient. When I get home tonight I'll measure some peak and RMS levels for a variety of Crop Cricle and 10CD box tracks (unless someone else posts the data before then).
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greynol
post Nov 21 2006, 10:54
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QUOTE (cliveb @ Nov 21 2006, 01:32) *
When I get home tonight I'll measure some peak and RMS levels for a variety of Crop Cricle and 10CD box tracks (unless someone else posts the data before then).

I generated data for Discs 1 and 2 of the Crop Circle Box using Audition already.
CODE
Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
Peak Amplitude: -1.22 dB -.7 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.02 dB -18.3 dB

Celebration Day
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.3 dB -16.65 dB

Communication Breakdown
Peak Amplitude: -.45 dB -.74 dB
Average RMS Power: -15.72 dB -15.14 dB

Dazed And Confused
Peak Amplitude: -.03 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.38 dB -16.71 dB

Friends
Peak Amplitude: -.77 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.16 dB -19.02 dB

Heartbreaker
Peak Amplitude: -.01 dB -.51 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.96 dB -16.74 dB

Hey Hey What Can I Do
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.82 dB -18.67 dB

I Can't Quit You Baby
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.01 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.6 dB -19.5 dB

Ramble On
Peak Amplitude: -.05 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.31 dB -19.35 dB

Thank You
Peak Amplitude: -.91 dB -1.46 dB
Average RMS Power: -24.27 dB -23.23 dB

Travelling Riverside Blues
Peak Amplitude: -.89 dB -.89 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.96 dB -16.96 dB

What Is And What Should Never Be
Peak Amplitude: -1.2 dB -.55 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.36 dB -21 dB

White Summer , Black Mountain Side
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -23.8 dB -23.8 dB

Whole Lotta Love
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.33 dB -19.29 dB

Your Time Is Gonna Come
Peak Amplitude: -1.23 dB -1.11 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.57 dB -18.31 dB


CODE
Black Dog
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.4 dB -18.15 dB

Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Peak Amplitude: -.5 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.22 dB -20.08 dB

Custard Pie
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.06 dB -19.66 dB

D'yer Mak'er
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.22 dB -19.42 dB

Gallows Pole
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.11 dB -20.81 dB

Going To California
Peak Amplitude: -4.9 dB -3.14 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.22 dB -21.36 dB

Immigrant Song
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.34 dB -16.76 dB

Misty Mountain Hop
Peak Amplitude: -.92 dB -1.5 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.3 dB -16.5 dB

Over The Hills And Far Away
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.65 dB -21.02 dB

Rock And Roll
Peak Amplitude: -.78 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.28 dB -16.55 dB

Since I've Been Loving You
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.82 dB -19.19 dB

Stairway To Heaven
Peak Amplitude: -1.11 dB -.14 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.45 dB -21.07 dB

Tangerine
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.45 dB -20.47 dB

The Battle Of Evermore
Peak Amplitude: -4.12 dB -2.4 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.1 dB -19.66 dB

The Rain Song
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.15 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.72 dB -19.22 dB


This post has been edited by greynol: Nov 21 2006, 20:00


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digital
post Nov 21 2006, 11:18
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Whew! I don't know if we should even be arguing this one boyz'. I mean, this album, as with many others of the day for Zep', are so chalk full of rock / soul / feeling / energy, that I don't think that they were put down to be any kind of audiophile oracle... We're talking here about my favorite Zeppelin LP. I've owned the damned thing in cassette, LP and CD - hell, perhaps even 8-track, (don't recall).

It’s a [lot] grungy, a [bit] raw, dirty - but its such a classic slab of rock and roll - Damn, now I have to go play it...

There, The Rover is screaming in the background… refocus man…

My current remastered double Album (CD) has great bass, though I cannot compare it to the LP version as I don't currently have it - got out of vinyl years ago, sold everything - only to get back into it two years ago... rolleyes.gif

1) Leave your keyboard now
2) Place said masterpiece in the TT or in the CD
3) Crank shitless...

…ah, now, isn’t that much better…?

Andrew D.
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