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Will Vorbis 2.0 be backwards compatible?
towolf
post Apr 27 2006, 09:53
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You can also track Xiph commits in real-time:
http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/xiph
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vlada
post Apr 27 2006, 09:57
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QUOTE (smok3 @ Apr 27 2006, 02:38 AM) *
some ppl are actually using theora and it 'streams' pretty well using java applet, examples:
http://www.kiberpipa.org/video2.php


It's not working very well for me. The movie is choppy and I can't seek in it or change volume. Also there are many people who don't have Java installed. If I compare it to DivX plugin (see example), it brings much better comfort. I would really love to see a plugin like this for Ogg.

Liisachan
By saying "really low quality", I didn't mean that the quality is not acceptable, but it cannot be compared to any modern codecs like XviD, DivX, x264, VP7, RV40 or WMV9. Three years ago it would be one of the best codecs out there. But I think Theora still has about the same quality as VP3. But of course the price is unbeatable :-) I'm really looking forward to see what we'll have after this year's Summer of Code.

Btw. I can also confirm some garbage in libavcodec Vorbis decoder.
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Liisachan
post Apr 27 2006, 11:33
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I didn't mean "Theora is hard to play." Generally, I could just say "Use vlc" and it works out of the box.
In the above case, I need to ask others to play movie via DirectShow, not just playing but playing via DS, to test a certain DS Vorbis decoder, and playing Theora via DS is a bit more complicated. Essentially it's easy tho. The fact is, Gabest once tried to let MPC splitt Theora in OggFile too, just like OGM, but then:
http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=3633754
QUOTE
Sorry, theora is not supported natively and will never be, it is a seriously broken format. You have to use 3rd party filters.


Theora in other formats (like DSM) plays using MPC's internal splitter, but not Ogg Theora. I'm not really sure, but this might mean that, even tho Theora itself is ok, OggFile as a file format needs some modifications. If that happened, the new Ogg Format, including "Ogg Vorbis II", would be not back-compat.
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vlada
post Jun 5 2006, 12:38
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I earlier already mentioned, that Ogg formats are not very user-friendly. I give you one example why. Today I downloaded some files from this site. I'll let you know my experiences.

First of all Firefox offered me to open the files with Apollo (my default music player). I had to manually choose a video player (ViPlay, ordinary DirectShow player). It didn't play. So I downloaded the file to my HDD and did some tests.

Firstly I tried to open the Ogg file in some audio players: Apollo, Winamp, XMPlay, foobar2000 - nothing played. I expected at least one player will start playing the audio track. I tried some video players - VLC - worked O.K., MPC - worked, all other DS players failed.

Why? I have installed Illiminable filters, Haali's splitter and FFDShow (Thera and Vorbis allowed). But all DS players will load Illiminable splitter, then connect audio and video to Illiminable DS decoders. For an uknown reason this graph doesen't work, I even tried it in GraphEdit. AviSynth with DirectShowSource failed too.

MPC played file fine, as long as I used internal Ogg spliter and FFDShow decoder. If I disabled FFDShow, MPC wasn't able to connect to Illiminable Theora decoder. The same happend to Illiminable Vorbis decoder if I disabled MPC's and FFDShow's decoders.

I finally found out, that all I need to do is to rename the file to *.ogm. Then Haali's splitter will be used together with FFDShow and it plays almost fine. I say almost, because both FFDShow and VLC used my whole CPU (Athlon XP 1,3 GHz) and the video was still choppy (standard NTSC 640x480, 30fps). MPEG-4 ASP would use about 20% of CPU on my machine.

So my suggestions to developers:

1) Fix Illiminable filters, also make them so, that they can connect to other Ogg splitters and fix the Ogg splitter to allow connection to other decoders (such as FFDShow).

2) I would really suggest to use OGM extension for video files. For most people OGG = Ogg Vorbis and it is an audiofile. I have my audio files associated to a simple audio player (Apollo) and video files to ViPlay. Most people use different players for audio and video IMHO. Matroska uses MKV extension for video and MKA for audio. MP4 allows the same confusion as Ogg, but many people are using M4A for audio-only MP4s.

3) Why don't audio players play Vorbis streams in Ogg file? It works O.K. with Matroska (at least in foobar2000).

4) As I already mentioned a web plugin for OGG would be a really good idea. Something like this DivX plugin.

5) Haali could add support for OGG extension to his filter.
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VEG
post Jun 6 2006, 12:36
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QUOTE
I earlier already mentioned, that Ogg formats are not very user-friendly.
Ogg Vorbis format is very user-friendly. Theora is not, because it in development now.


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vlada
post Jun 6 2006, 16:59
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QUOTE (VEG @ Jun 6 2006, 13:36) *
QUOTE
I earlier already mentioned, that Ogg formats are not very user-friendly.
Ogg Vorbis format is very user-friendly. Theora is not, because it in development now.


Yes, you're right. But I think that some of the problems I had are also related to OGG multimedia container. I'm looking forward for the final release of Ogg v2 and Theora v1. I just wanted to let the developers know, that there are some problems which need to be fixed.

This post has been edited by vlada: Jun 6 2006, 17:07
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gameplaya15143
post Jun 6 2006, 22:56
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QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 07:38) *
1) Fix Illiminable filters, also make them so, that they can connect to other Ogg splitters and fix the Ogg splitter to allow connection to other decoders (such as FFDShow).

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=41494


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kjoonlee
post Jun 8 2006, 12:06
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QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 20:38) *
3) Why don't audio players play Vorbis streams in Ogg file? It works O.K. with Matroska (at least in foobar2000).

This is being worked on, in SVN. /branches/vorbis-tahseen/


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SebastianG
post Jun 8 2006, 15:55
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QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 13:38) *
I earlier already mentioned, that Ogg formats are not very user-friendly.

vlada, let's just stop the whining and say you are not satisfied with the current (player) support for Ogg formats.

QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 13:38) *
2) I would really suggest to use OGM extension for video files. For most people OGG = Ogg Vorbis and it is an audiofile. I have my audio files associated to a simple audio player (Apollo) and video files to ViPlay. Most people use different players for audio and video IMHO. Matroska uses MKV extension for video and MKA for audio. MP4 allows the same confusion as Ogg, but many people are using M4A for audio-only MP4s.

Keep in mind that OGM is not a Xiph-blessed container derivate. It was born to allow storing other (non-Xiph-format) streams by signalling its use via an AVI-like stream header so one could couple DivX with Vorbis for example. You're not the first one that is suggesting different extensions for different media types. Of course, you can rename the files like you want if it makes your life easier, but the official ending for (real!) Ogg streams is "ogg". See here.

QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 13:38) *
3) Why don't audio players play Vorbis streams in Ogg file? It works O.K. with Matroska (at least in foobar2000).

Possibly because they're expecting a so-called "degenerate ogg stream" (a stream consisting of exactly one logical stream). Degenerate Ogg streams are easier to parse / seek in. I'm pretty sure that most mp3 players can't play an mp3 which is inside an MPEG1 system stream. Foobar2000 is possibly the only audio-only player that supports Matroska. Usually audio-only players don't give a sh** about containers. I'm sure WinAMP has no abstraction/interface for containers -- just input plugins wink.gif

QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 13:38) *
4) As I already mentioned a web plugin for OGG would be a really good idea. Something like this DivX plugin.

Good idea! Are you volunteering? biggrin.gif

Something on-topic: I'd like to invite you to read Wikipedia's definition of "backwards compatible" which states "Backward compatibility is a relationship between two components, rather than being an attribute of just one of them [....] Data does nothing in the absence of an interpreter, so the notion of compatibility does not apply to document files, it only applies to software" So, strictly speaking the thread title doesn't make much sense. The OP either wants to know if a Vorbis 2 decoder is able to play Vorbis 1 streams (in this case the vorbis 2 decoder would be backwards compatible) or if a Vorbis 1 decoder is able to play Vorbis 2 files. Concerning the latter title interpretation: Can't tell since there isn't a Vorbis II yet. smile.gif Though, it's highly probable that they won't be. And even if they are playable you won't get the full quality (like HE-AAC playing on an LC-AAC decoder).


Sebi

This post has been edited by SebastianG: Jun 8 2006, 16:21
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vlada
post Jun 8 2006, 17:00
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QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jun 8 2006, 16:55) *
QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 13:38) *

I earlier already mentioned, that Ogg formats are not very user-friendly.

vlada, let's just stop the whining and say you are not satisfied with the current (player) support for Ogg formats.


No, it is not a problem of a certain players. There are players, which have a workaround (like MPC). But generaly no DirectShow player will work with Illiminable filters (at least on my computer). Those filters are linked from Xiph.org page. There are no official DirectShow filters. There is one more alternative from Radlight, but doesen't work for me either. What I'm trying to point out is, that there is no support for end users from Xiph.org and that third party players/decoders don't work correctly.

QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jun 8 2006, 16:55) *
Keep in mind that OGM is not a Xiph-blessed container derivate. It was born to allow storing other (non-Xiph-format) streams by signalling its use via an AVI-like stream header so one could couple DivX with Vorbis for example. You're not the first one that is suggesting different extensions for different media types. Of course, you can rename the files like you want if it makes your life easier, but the official ending for (real!) Ogg streams is "ogg". See here.


I know exactly what is OGM and I also know, that the only official extension for Ogg Theora is OGG. But I don't think it is a good idea. You have .FLAC and .SPX extension for FLAC and Speex. So I think there should also be another extension for Theora, OGM was just a sugestion because most people know, that OGM is a video file. Having the same extension for video and audio files is really inpractical a nobody else uses it.


QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jun 8 2006, 16:55) *
QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 13:38) *

3) Why don't audio players play Vorbis streams in Ogg file? It works O.K. with Matroska (at least in foobar2000).

Possibly because they're expecting a so-called "degenerate ogg stream" (a stream consisting of exactly one logical stream). Degenerate Ogg streams are easier to parse / seek in. I'm pretty sure that most mp3 players can't play an mp3 which is inside an MPEG1 system stream. Foobar2000 is possibly the only audio-only player that supports Matroska. Usually audio-only players don't give a sh** about containers. I'm sure WinAMP has no abstraction/interface for containers -- just input plugins wink.gif


Winamp supports Matroska through DirectShow. But you're right, that most audio players have a separate plugin for each single format. But why an OGG Vorbis plugin shouldn't be able to play a Vorbis soundtrack and ignore all others tracks. Unfortunately I don't know much about degenarate ogg streams. But as kjoonlee said, Xiph.org knows about this issue and works on it.

QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jun 8 2006, 16:55) *
QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 5 2006, 13:38) *

4) As I already mentioned a web plugin for OGG would be a really good idea. Something like this DivX plugin.

Good idea! Are you volunteering? biggrin.gif

I would, if I were a better programmer. rolleyes.gif

P.S. I'm not requesting anyone to do anything. I'm just giving suggestions and I expect a discussion about them.

This post has been edited by vlada: Jun 8 2006, 17:02
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gameplaya15143
post Jun 8 2006, 17:13
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For Ogg Theora I have been using *.ogv (.ogg opens in winamp, and it can't handle theora)

Illiminable's filters DO WORK. Just make sure they are the last ogg filters you have installed (install them after oggds/corevorbis). Otherwise the registry entries will be overwritten. Illiminable's filters are extention dependent, they will handle .ogg, .ogv, and .oga. *.ogm shouldn't be used for 'real' ogg files.


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LaserSokrates
post Jun 8 2006, 17:39
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QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Jun 8 2006, 18:13) *
Illiminable's filters are extention dependent, they will handle .ogg, .ogv, and .oga.

That reminds me of the file association dialogue of WMP that doesn't know *.ogg, but *.oga and *.ogv. I never heard of these suffixes before.
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jorsol
post Jun 8 2006, 18:35
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The big problem is not to have only one extension for all formats, if I have an Ogg Vorbis or an Ogg FLAC or an Ogg Theora with the *.ogg extension, illiminable filters will open all without problem in any directshow based player.... the problem is that audio-players that are plugins-based, don't care the container format.

This is a workaround for winamp...
- install last illiminable filters...
- open winamp and go to preferences.
- go to Plug-ins - Input
- configure "Nullsoft DirectShow Decoder"
- add ";OGG" (without the quotes) to the list...
- done, now you can play Ogg Vorbis, Ogg FLAC and Ogg Theora using Winamp.

PS. btw illiminable filters are the most official directshow filters from Xiph.org, they dont have to be created by Xiph.org or a top member to be the official one... illiminable has access to SVN of Xiph and all the progress is done there, illiminable is practicaly a member of Xiph and he work close with Xiph.

and remeber that the 0.x means that the filters are still in beta... is to be exprected that the 1.0 version of the filters will have a complete support for ogg codecs, user-friendly and stable.


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vlada
post Jun 8 2006, 20:35
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gameplaya15143
I don't have OggDS or CoreVorbis installed. I had Radlight filters, but I unregistered them. I also have Haali's splitter and FFDShow with Vorbis and Theora enabled.

jorsol
I know how to enable DirectShow decoding for a certain extension in Winamp. But it won't work for me as I already mentioned.

All
So the videos I linked work for you with Illiminable filters? Then there must be something wrong in my computer. But all other filters work fine.
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jcoalson
post Jun 8 2006, 20:54
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QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 8 2006, 11:00) *
I know exactly what is OGM and I also know, that the only official extension for Ogg Theora is OGG. But I don't think it is a good idea. You have .FLAC and .SPX extension for FLAC and Speex.

I don't know about speex, but .flac is for native FLAC. Ogg FLAC is just .ogg. For degenerate streams, .flac.ogg (etc) might be useful way to do it.

Josh
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HotshotGG
post Jun 8 2006, 23:45
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QUOTE
I know exactly what is OGM and I also know, that the only official extension for Ogg Theora is OGG. But I don't think it is a good idea. You have .FLAC and .SPX extension for FLAC and Speex. So I think there should also be another extension for Theora, OGM was just a sugestion because most people know, that OGM is a video file. Having the same extension for video and audio files is really inpractical a nobody else uses it.


Stupid waste of time. Developers need to write software that recognize the difference between a Vorbis stream and a Theora stream. You only need one stream container. It makes life so much easier. What is going to be tricky is designing libogg to support Theora + Speex data, chaining physical bitstreams, etc.

QUOTE
1 decoder is able to play Vorbis 2 files. Concerning the latter title interpretation: Can't tell since there isn't a Vorbis II yet. Though, it's highly probable that they won't be. And even if they are playable you won't get the full quality (like HE-AAC playing on an LC-AAC decoder


If you change the window function or implement some sort hybrid filterbank it won't be possible. The focus for Vorbis II should be rewriting the encoder to support VQ books more effciently and to have full 5.1 coupling. That's just my honest opinion. wink.gif


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SebastianG
post Jun 9 2006, 11:08
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QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Jun 9 2006, 00:45) *
The focus for Vorbis II should be rewriting the encoder to support VQ books more effciently and to have full 5.1 coupling. That's just my honest opinion. wink.gif

What's the problem with "VQ books" ?
Also, the Vorbis I format looks like you can do proper 5.1 coupling. I guess it's just the lack of an encoder that's smart enough.

No one's going to use something like Vorbis II if it's just Vorbis I with some incompatible minor fixes. And that's probably why Monty's currently on a complete different path. See here or here.

This post has been edited by SebastianG: Jun 9 2006, 11:12
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foxyshadis
post Jun 11 2006, 04:52
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QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 8 2006, 09:00) *
I know exactly what is OGM and I also know, that the only official extension for Ogg Theora is OGG. But I don't think it is a good idea. You have .FLAC and .SPX extension for FLAC and Speex. So I think there should also be another extension for Theora, OGM was just a sugestion because most people know, that OGM is a video file. Having the same extension for video and audio files is really inpractical a nobody else uses it.

MP4 does. You regularly see both audio only and video mp4s online, audio only almost always AAC but now and then mp3. While it caused some confusion a year or two ago, the dust seems to have settled down now.

It can be done with effort on splitter makers' parts; perhaps Illiminable hasn't done it because theora simply isn't efficient or fast enough for real use compared to other codecs (unlike vorbis) and is hardly found anywhere. Although they did make the DS decoder... *shrug* Maybe you should email them about it.
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vlada
post Jun 13 2006, 08:19
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QUOTE (foxyshadis @ Jun 11 2006, 05:52) *
QUOTE (vlada @ Jun 8 2006, 09:00) *
I know exactly what is OGM and I also know, that the only official extension for Ogg Theora is OGG. But I don't think it is a good idea. You have .FLAC and .SPX extension for FLAC and Speex. So I think there should also be another extension for Theora, OGM was just a sugestion because most people know, that OGM is a video file. Having the same extension for video and audio files is really inpractical a nobody else uses it.

MP4 does. You regularly see both audio only and video mp4s online, audio only almost always AAC but now and then mp3. While it caused some confusion a year or two ago, the dust seems to have settled down now.


I don't think so. Most people have no idea, what MP4 is. People who have already seen it usually think it is a video compression. I see a lot of computer users looking for "MP4 codec".

And it is similar with OGG, most people think it is a sound compression. They're confusing OGG and Vorbis.

I really believe, that 99% of computer users have no idea what a multimedia container is. Most people never heard about OGG Vorbis a most people don't know that Windows is not the only one operating system in the Universe. I think this is the sad truth....
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jorsol
post Jun 13 2006, 15:58
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QUOTE (SebastianG @ Jun 9 2006, 04:08) *
No one's going to use something like Vorbis II if it's just Vorbis I with some incompatible minor fixes. And that's probably why Monty's currently on a complete different path. See here or here.
AFAIK, Ghost codec is just a proof of concept (like Ogg Tarkin), and probably will never see the light... or at least not first than Vorbis II...

Maybe this codec serves for inspiration for Vorbis II, maybe not... but the only thing sure is that Vorbis I still has a lot of room for improvements, like 5.1 channel coupling and in the quality of the low bitrate area... so I don't see the reason why we should bother to us about the compatibily of Vorbis II, when Voribis I will be here at least 5 years more.


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gameplaya15143
post Jun 14 2006, 00:42
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@vlada:
this applies to illiminable's oggcodecs and radlight too (IIRC):
If their splitter doesn't parse the file, then their decoder will NOT be used. They will not work with other parser filters. Do you understand what I'm saying here?

The vorbis decoder in oggds, corevorbis, and ffdshow will decode vorbis in mkv.

Since there isn't any standalone directshow parser filter for ogg that knows what theora is, ffdshow can't decode it. If I'm not mistaken, it will only decode theora in AVI. (..at least as far as I know)


/me drools at the thought of tarkin actually being usable


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jorsol
post Jun 14 2006, 01:57
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QUOTE (gameplaya15143 @ Jun 13 2006, 17:42) *
Since there isn't any standalone directshow parser filter for ogg that knows what theora is, ffdshow can't decode it. If I'm not mistaken, it will only decode theora in AVI. (..at least as far as I know)
ffdshow can play theora in MKV too (using Haali Splitter)...

Also note... Haali Media Spliter can play Ogg Theora and Ogg Vorbis, using ffdshow only... you don't need to install illiminable filters if you don't want, you only need last ffdshow and last Haali Splitter.... you can even use CoreVorbis for the audio if you disable Vorbis in ffdshow....

This post has been edited by jorsol: Jun 14 2006, 02:02


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