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Topic: How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake? (Read 17721 times) previous topic - next topic
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How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

I'm going to buy a very cheap audio card for my laptop so and I'm reading some reviews.

Even if it doesn't really matter for my purposes, I discovered that all the audio sent to a Creative Audigy card is converted to 16bit-48khz to be processed by the EMU10k2 DSP.

I don't know how the sample conversion is done (software or hardware), however It seems done poorly after the DSP (but these are only voices).

Does someone know any detail or do all Audigy pratically play only 16bit/48khz with good DAC?
(and, of course, a beautiful, misleading, Creative Box)

p.s. maybe 24bit 96khz is possible by disabling all effects.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #1 –
Creative has lied about their cards many times. They were finally sued and forced to pay "damages." This was about the resampling to 48kHz. From what I've heard, if you read the details in their current cards' literature carefully enough, they now admit the resampling -- in a rather indirect fashion. They seem to be claiming that the resampling to 48kHz in their latest cards is of significantly improved quality, but it still happens.

I believe there is a reason other than stubbornness and stupidity for this. They make gaming cards and try to maintain their position at the top of that market. There is a standard of sorts for resampling to 48kHz because some of these game sources (and possibly other "multi-media stuff) comes in mixed sample rates. Soundcards can not output different sample rates at the same time, their clock must run as some singular particular rate. Therefore everything is processed before it gets to the DAC, converting to 48kHz, so it will actually produce sound without croaking. The real problem is Creative lies that the cards are good for serious audio.

This is hardware resampling and cannot be bypassed. It has generally been much poorer than can be managed with decent software. Possibly the latest cards are improved ???

I don't know about the 16 bit part. I don't see why, offhand, the resampling would have to include truncating to 16 bit. A 24 bit DAC handles 16 bit audio without difficulty.

There are so many better cards on the market, why bother even thinking about Creative's?

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #2 –
As far as I know, the Audigy 2 & 4 series have correct 24bit playback. The original Audigy card however, has *not*: there has been a class action law-suit about it (in the US ofcourse) which Creative lost. If you use a player like Foobar2000 you can play 24bit files. You can also playback lossy files (like MP3) at 24bit, this *theoratically* gives 'better' sound quality and can help give as good source quality as possible for any 'after-effects'.

Concerning the 48KHz problem, yes, any Audigy card will resample to 48KHz.  This will happen hardware-wise, and it is flawed (proved by the infamous 'udial' sample). However you can use for example Foobar2000 to feed the card resampled 48KHz material using the software resampler of your choice (eg SSRC or PPHS). The sole exceptions to this (I think) are 96KHz or 192KHz files which won't be hardware resampled (at least on a Audigy 2 or higher).

/edit
Hmm, I always believed the claim was about playing 24bit files, not just specifically 24bit @ 96KHz. My bad, sorry.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: SoleBastard on
Concerning the 48KHz problem, yes, any Audigy card will resample to 48KHz.  This will happen hardware-wise, and it is flawed (proved by the infamous 'udial' sample). However you can use for example Foobar2000 to feed the card resampled 48KHz material using the software resampler of your choice (eg SSRC or PPHS).
I have an SB Live! and the udial sample plays fine with Winamp but does not with foobar2000.  Why is this?

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: SoleBastard on
Concerning the 48KHz problem, yes, any Audigy card will resample to 48KHz.  This will happen hardware-wise, and it is flawed (proved by the infamous 'udial' sample). However you can use for example Foobar2000 to feed the card resampled 48KHz material using the software resampler of your choice (eg SSRC or PPHS). The sole exceptions to this (I think) are 96KHz or 192KHz files which won't be hardware resampled (at least on a Audigy 2 or higher).


The history of Creative's cards is long and chequered briefly

EMU10K1 (SB Live)
DMA and DSP limited to 16bit/48KHz.
Resampling introduces noise

EMU10K2 (Audigy 1)
DMA and DSP limited to 16bit/48KHz.
Resampling introduces noise.
More DSP and more DirectSound channels were added.

EMU10K2.5 (Audigy 2 & Audigy 4)
DMA can now do
  - 2 Channels @ 24bit/192KHz output only
  - 6.1 Channels @ 24bit/96KHz
DSP is still limited to 16bit/48KHz and all effects must be disabled to avoid resampling.
Resampling still introduces noise.
Change for Audigy 4 was better AD/DA converters.

EMU20K1 (X-Fi)
No change to DMA.
DSP can now handle 7.1 @ 24bit/96KHz.
Resampling now works properly.

However despite now having a card that works properly creative had to go and offer the spurious "Crystaliser" functionality on the X-Fi card which according to Creative somehow magically enhances the quality of MP3s. Look elsewhere on this forum for debunkings.

To the OP if you are after a decent USB audio box for your laptop you won't go far wrong with an Edirol UA1EX.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: greynol on
I have an SB Live! and the udial sample plays fine with Winamp but does not with foobar2000.  Why is this?


I don't know the answer, but have you checked the output device (e.g. waveout) is the same on both?

Other problems could be down to setup. I guess you must be using a resampling output plugin in Winamp which is performing well.

I presume you've got Resampler in the Foobar DSP list and it's set to 48000 Samples per second. One thing that someone had trouble with years ago was if they allowed Replaygain to boost the loudness of the udial sample (because the audible tones are quiet and would need a boost to reach 89dB, the ultrasound gets boosted so much that it clips). You could Edit Replaygain values to ensure that the Track Gain is zero or negative, but certainly not positive, and you must ensure that the Playback/Replaygain pre-amplifier is set to no more than 89 dB (0.00 dB relative) and the pre-amp for tracks without replaygain info is 0 dB or negative.
Dynamic – the artist formerly known as DickD

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Dynamic on
I don't know the answer, but have you checked the output device (e.g. waveout) is the same on both?

Other problems could be down to setup. I guess you must be using a resampling output plugin in Winamp which is performing well.

For Winamp 5.24, I'm using its standard waveOut output v2.1 (d)  [out_wave.dll] with the default settings.  There are no additional output plugins being used.

For foobar2k, I get the weird sounds unless I use the resampler configured for 48kHz.

The output device is the same on both.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #7 –
While it is no longer sold, I have the original "Audigy Platinum" (Audigy1).  One thing I wondered, but never been able to test / prove; When using the Front Panel's Digital Toslink/optical output, can the data output be 24-bit or is it restrained to 16?  I'm using an external DAC.  I'm not sure however whether it would be theoretically better to have foobar output 16-bit(Dithered or Undithered?) or 24.  Resampling to 48khz is of course needed to bypass the terrible hardware resampler, but can it output 24-bit using the digital outputs?

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
I don't know about the 16 bit part. I don't see why, offhand, the resampling would have to include truncating to 16 bit. A 24 bit DAC handles 16 bit audio without difficulty.

It isn't a problems of the DAC, but of the DSP. It can process only 16bit and it is almost always used. With Asio drivers you can use 16/48khz with all goodies or just only the dacs at 24/96khz (but not the more useful 24/48khz)

However, some tests around the net show an SNR of about -106 dB with the Audigy 4.
Can this be possible with a 16bit quantizer? If I rememer well this SNR is below the noise level of the quantizer.

Quote
There are so many better cards on the market, why bother even thinking about Creative's?


The Audigy 2 ZS Notebook seems worth its price. It is cheap and useful for many needs (hobbist recording, hw EAX for games, soundfont, asio, etc). I could not yet find something like that at the same price, even if I know I will have to use it at 16/48khz. (Also Linux doesn't yet support recording with that audiocard)

p.s. Maybe a lot of people bought them thinking to get "real" 24bit/96khz... All this falsity about audio stuff disgusts me. God bless Hydrogenaudio!

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #9 –
Here's some food for thought... how many audio files do you have that are encoded in 96khz/24bit audio? I only have a few and they're dvd-a rips (yes, I own the DVD-A's). For a laptop you don't need 96khz/24bit audio for most purposes. The most important thing is the processing quality for your card. In general the Audigy series have great sound processing/DSP quality. As for the upconversion story... I don't doubt that it takes place, however, this has never been a problem for me.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
There are so many better cards on the market, why bother even thinking about Creative's?

Would you rate M-Audio & Terratec (internal boards) based on the Via Envy24 higher? Can this chip do true 24-bit?

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: chelgrian on
...
The history of Creative's cards is long and chequered briefly
...
To the OP if you are after a decent USB audio box for your laptop you won't go far wrong with an Edirol UA1EX.

Thanks, that was the best summary of Creative cards vs. resampling I have ever read anywhere.
May I suggest you add this information to the HA Knowledgebase or FAQ?

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Mr. DTS on
Here's some food for thought... how many audio files do you have that are encoded in 96khz/24bit audio? I only have a few and they're dvd-a rips (yes, I own the DVD-A's). For a laptop you don't need 96khz/24bit audio for most purposes.
Unless your purpose is recording. In which case you want all that bit depth to give you headroom for later editing. If you don't care about that or other "unusual" purposes, creative is fine but so is just about any other card. There are a lot of things creative cards fail at, and one thing they do really well.
Quote
The most important thing is the processing quality for your card. In general the Audigy series have great sound processing/DSP quality. As for the upconversion story... I don't doubt that it takes place, however, this has never been a problem for me.
Processing DSPs are useless for straight playback. Unless you like to put "effects" on your music. Secondly, I don't think any DSPs will have much better sound quality than any other, just different qualities of capability. SB cards have more DSP horsepower than any other sound card, thus eax, but it isn't better from an pure audio quality perspective.

The forced 48khz conversion is generally not a huge problem (I've never noticed it on my C-Media based card which also does it). But you can't get rid of it, so if it ever is a problem you are SOL. And I think it just sticks in the craw of many of the people here to be promised high audio quality, 24bits, et cetera, and then receive a card with forced resampling.

----
Quote from: j7n on
Would you rate M-Audio & Terratec (internal boards) based on the Via Envy24 higher?
I would say even with the Audigy 4 or XFi (and better than Audigy 1 & 2) for audio quality. As long as games are not important to you then they are a great card.
Quote
Can this chip do true 24-bit?
Depends on the variety of envy chip. They all can do 24bit digital IO, but some models can only use 20 bits with their DACs. Take a look at Via's overview.

M-Audio uses the Envy24 and Envy24HT chips, which are the best models. Terratec seems to be using the 24HT-S, which is the reduced one. For the prices terratec wants I think something like the Chaintec AV710 is a better buy.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: SoleBastard on
Concerning the 48KHz problem, yes, any Audigy card will resample to 48KHz.  This will happen hardware-wise, and it is flawed (proved by the infamous 'udial' sample). However you can use for example Foobar2000 to feed the card resampled 48KHz material using the software resampler of your choice (eg SSRC or PPHS). The sole exceptions to this (I think) are 96KHz or 192KHz files which won't be hardware resampled (at least on a Audigy 2 or higher).

There's a better solution - Audigy 2 Value (which has a newer chip than the rest of A2s) can skip hardware resampling in some modes. Namely using Bit Accurate Playback (didn't work for me) and foobar's ASIO output (did work for me). Udial sample sounds exactly as it should, no resampling errors or clipping.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: elenhil on
Quote from: SoleBastard on

Concerning the 48KHz problem, yes, any Audigy card will resample to 48KHz.  This will happen hardware-wise, and it is flawed (proved by the infamous 'udial' sample). However you can use for example Foobar2000 to feed the card resampled 48KHz material using the software resampler of your choice (eg SSRC or PPHS). The sole exceptions to this (I think) are 96KHz or 192KHz files which won't be hardware resampled (at least on a Audigy 2 or higher).

There's a better solution - Audigy 2 Value (which has a newer chip than the rest of A2s) can skip hardware resampling in some modes. Namely using Bit Accurate Playback (didn't work for me) and foobar's ASIO output (did work for me). Udial sample sounds exactly as it should, no resampling errors or clipping.



This is also true with my Audigy 4 (not the Audigy 4 Pro). I uses the same DSP chip as the Audigy 2 Value.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=411063
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=411067
Acid8000 aka. PhilDEE

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #15 –
Did I understand correcly:
- In order to mix multiple sound streams, you must use the DSP and resample everything to 48k/16 (making Audigy equal to older stereo / integrated sound controllers, except for num of channels)?

Audigy apears to have good support from 3rd party developers – the kXProject. Why would this group devote its time for so very inferior hardware? The kX drivers are the only reason I consider getting an Audigy 2. Can these drivers workaround the DSP problem, perhaps by mixing all audio in software?

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #16 –
Creative sells millions of soundcards. They came from a gaming background and are still very game oriented, but they also sell to a lot of people who know little (and maybe care little) about audio. They have lied consistently for years in order to build their market. The cards work quite well for games but they are not the same as professional audio cards. I suppose there is third party support because the market is so large.

Creative and their clones resample to 48kHz so they are capable of handling audio source data of differing sample rates. That isn't a consideration in professional music recording, mixing, or playback. Many professional cards can mix multiple data streams in on-board DSP chips, but only when they are all the same sample rate. Those cards do not do resampling so they can't handle game date that is in that form.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: j7n on
Did I understand correcly:
- In order to mix multiple sound streams, you must use the DSP and resample everything to 48k/16 (making Audigy equal to older stereo / integrated sound controllers, except for num of channels)?

Audigy apears to have good support from 3rd party developers – the kXProject. Why would this group devote its time for so very inferior hardware? The kX drivers are the only reason I consider getting an Audigy 2. Can these drivers workaround the DSP problem, perhaps by mixing all audio in software?


Probably if you don't use the dsp at all you can get 96khz/24bit. A secure way to do it could be to use foobar with asio drivers.
However, I think it is not a real problem: you can also resample with foobar at 48khz. Audigy likes 48khz much better than 44khz because of a bad resampling engine.
(btw I can ear some differences only with very particular samples like udial)

I think that creative makes good audiocards for their price. Audigy audiocard are certainly much better than old integrated sound controller: sampling frequency and bit resolution tell *nothing* about the overall quality of an audiocard. 
I was blaming only its marketing: a lot of people bought a 24/bit 96Khz audiocard -advertised  with a lot of near-to-fraud images showing how much 24/96 is better- only  to play a "bad" 44khz at 16bit. Even if the most people cannot ear any difference.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
Many professional cards can mix multiple data streams in on-board DSP chips, but only when they are all the same sample rate. Those cards do not do resampling so they can't handle game date that is in that form.


I take it that non-resampling mixers in sound cards have some way of avoiding clipping when mixing digital signals?  e.g. mixing at higher bit-depths and attenuating the final output down to a level that won't clip?

-brendan

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #19 –
The interface is usually simple faders; generally one on each channel's input to the mixer and a master level out. These work quite well, the same as a preamp or mixer level controls on analogue equipment.

The DSP chip on my M-Audio card is 36  bit.

How much is 24bit/96khz on all Audigy a fake?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Mercurio on
Probably if you don't use the dsp at all you can get 96khz/24bit. A secure way to do it could be to use foobar with asio drivers.


As far as I remember, the Audigy 1 is strictly unable to playback real 96 kHz data. The DAC can never be set at that frequency, whatever driver you choose. It is resampled to 48 kHz.