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How much am I losing?, wav->mp3 exteme VS MPC->mp3 extreme
Unknown
post Mar 25 2007, 23:39
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Hi guys,

I just wanted to ask you a question regarding MPC and transcoding to mp3 afterwards. I basically keep my collection in MPC files as I am a hardcore MPC fan for several years now. I do have the iRiver h120 now so I can play using Rocksbox my mpc collection on a portable device and thats awesome. Speaking longterm tho, worst case scenario, there will be NO support for MPC on portable. then I will be forced to transcode from MPC to MP3..

My question is, how much quality am I loosing if :

I have MPC q7 (insane) --> LAME mp3 VBR V 0

vs

If I encoded my orginal wav file -- > LAME mp3 VBR V 0



I just tested one of my files and it yield:

original wav - > LAME VBR V 0 ===> 288 kbps
MPC -> LAME VBR V 0 ===> 285 kbps

Even though there was just 3 kbps loss visibly, how much quzlity did I really loose?
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LANjackal
post Mar 25 2007, 23:51
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Well, you certainly didn't gain any quality. Quality is subjective. ABX the two output tracks and see for yourself.

This post has been edited by LANjackal: Mar 25 2007, 23:51


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kwanbis
post Mar 25 2007, 23:53
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Mar 25 2007, 22:39) *
Speaking longterm tho, worst case scenario, there will be NO support for MPC on portable.

there is rockbox for many players, most important ipods ... so i don't see any long term issues ...

QUOTE (Unknown @ Mar 25 2007, 22:39) *
My question is, how much quality am I loosing if :

you have to ABX yourself


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Unknown
post Mar 26 2007, 00:36
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Well, I am afraid that the Rocksbox project might leave it support and development and then we will rely solely on stock firmware. Way things are going, nothing but lossless and mp3 will be supported..

I know that I certainly did not gain quality, thats out of the question... I am asking because I want to listen to best quality even but if I am forced to transcode to mp3 then am I stuck with *itty music quality. I listened to the two and on headphones I could not detect anything... I am buying a new car sometime soon tho, and new cars have aux input for portables, thus my music would be played in god car speakers and shitty quality would be audible ... I personally think that mp3 handles poorly the drums you know hi hats, cymballs ..
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kanak
post Mar 26 2007, 01:33
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Mar 26 2007, 05:36) *
Well, I am afraid that the Rocksbox project might leave it support and development and then we will rely solely on stock firmware. Way things are going, nothing but lossless and mp3 will be supported..

I know that I certainly did not gain quality, thats out of the question... I am asking because I want to listen to best quality even but if I am forced to transcode to mp3 then am I stuck with *itty music quality. I listened to the two and on headphones I could not detect anything... I am buying a new car sometime soon tho, and new cars have aux input for portables, thus my music would be played in god car speakers and shitty quality would be audible ... I personally think that mp3 handles poorly the drums you know hi hats, cymballs ..


A few things i'd like to say:

1. If AT PRESENT your portable supports MPC, why bother transcoding RIGHT NOW? just leave it as MPC, but rip new cds as MP3 or whatever it is you think will serve you best.

2. Quality isn't quantifiable. x kbps in one codec doesn't translate into y codec into another. The fact that you lost 3 kbps in VBR while transcoding from MPC to MP3 doesn't mean anything at all. the codecs work differently, and a change in the bitrate itself doesn't tell you anything.

The only thing that matters is: can you hear the quality difference or not? Forget about all the factors. Stop worrying about the fact that you're transcoding. Can you hear the difference? If you've tried two songs and not heard the difference, what does that tell you? Of course there is a "quality" loss, but the only thing you should be concerned about is can you hear the difference.

So my suggestions:
1. Stop worrying too much. Don't worry about whether rockbox will be around in 10 years time, or whether your MP3s have lost quality,

2. See if you can hear a difference. If you can't, then nothing else matters.
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Unknown
post Mar 26 2007, 07:27
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QUOTE (kanak @ Mar 25 2007, 19:33) *
A few things i'd like to say:

1. If AT PRESENT your portable supports MPC, why bother transcoding RIGHT NOW? just leave it as MPC, but rip new cds as MP3 or whatever it is you think will serve you best.


I am not transcoding right now. I am asking the question because I want to know -- should I still be encoding in MPC or should I encode my new music in mp3 from now on. I do not want to move away from MPC, but if the MPC is dying and it is kind of dead... Thank god theres Rocksbox. If it aint for Rocksbox, however, my collection is useless as MPC. I was wonderingg if a test or comparison has been done so far to examine the quality loss MPC-->mp3.
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kanak
post Mar 26 2007, 07:36
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QUOTE (Unknown @ Mar 26 2007, 12:27) *
QUOTE (kanak @ Mar 25 2007, 19:33) *


A few things i'd like to say:

1. If AT PRESENT your portable supports MPC, why bother transcoding RIGHT NOW? just leave it as MPC, but rip new cds as MP3 or whatever it is you think will serve you best.


I am not transcoding right now. I am asking the question because I want to know -- should I still be encoding in MPC or should I encode my new music in mp3 from now on. I do not want to move away from MPC, but if the MPC is dying and it is kind of dead... Thank god theres Rocksbox. If it aint for Rocksbox, however, my collection is useless as MPC. I was wonderingg if a test or comparison has been done so far to examine the quality loss MPC-->mp3.


If you don't want to take chances, start ripping to MP3. i'm sure you can find a bitrate that's adequate for your needs. Just transcode the existing MPC files then.
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xmixahlx
post Mar 26 2007, 07:53
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i wouldn't worry about it...

for one, rockbox will support musepack and will only get more popular, especially with support for ipod devices. they aren't going to drop support for musepack. there is no reason to. and even if they did it would live on in unofficial patches anyways.

another, mpc --insane is great for transcoding to portable mp3 settings (-V4, etc) and "back in the day" i was unable to ABX mpc@insane>mp3@128 versus wav>mp3@128. in many instances i was able to ABX mpc@standard>lame@preset_standard, tho.



later


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Unknown
post Mar 26 2007, 08:01
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QUOTE (xmixahlx @ Mar 26 2007, 01:53) *
another, mpc --insane is great for transcoding to portable mp3 settings (-V4, etc) and "back in the day" i was unable to ABX mpc@insane>mp3@128 versus wav>mp3@128. in many instances i was able to ABX mpc@standard>lame@preset_standard, tho.

later


Well, I am not too familiar with Rocksbox and their staff and intentions. but considering its free, the folks working on rockbox can decide to leave it or just move onto another better paying job smile.gif) That is, I am thinkning Rockbox can be dead any second as are many free projects...

Also, looking at players -- iRiver players models are disappearing like hell, no Hs anymore.. iPods price and battery life is horrible, but as long as there are portables and rocksbox being developed maintained, I dont care which player I am goingto be buying -- just want the ability to play my adorable MPCs.

I generally stick to quality, so if I am transcoding my insane MPC -- > mp3 it will be either the V 0 or 320 kbps

This post has been edited by Unknown: Mar 26 2007, 08:04
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halb27
post Mar 26 2007, 09:50
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I use Rockbox on a H140 and I also care a bit about the future.
But I realized we can't really say how things will be like in 10 or 15 years ahead.
mp3 is so widespread that it's hard to beleive there won't be hardware support in 15 years ahead, but not even this is for sure.
I used wavPack lossy on my H140 at ~350 kbps with the strategy in mind that when I should ever have to transcode things will be fine as the input quality is very good.

This is the same thing you do with MPC, and for just a little bit more peace of mind you might consider increasing the quality level a little bit.

Meanwhile I gave up wavPack cause I often ran into booting problems now that the battery isn't very new any more. I decided to do what most people do and use an additional lossless archive for the better part of my music, and I use high quality mp3 for listening purposes.

This post has been edited by halb27: Mar 26 2007, 09:53


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twostar
post Mar 26 2007, 09:56
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i don't see the point of transcoding mpc to very high bitrate mp3s. your pc will ALWAYS be able to play mpc. my advice is leave them be.

for portable use, transcode to lame -V 5 or even -V 6. on the commute or while driving, i doubt anyone can tell the difference.

also, if rockbox currently supports your DAP, why worry that no one will work on the project anymore? the important thing is your DAP plays your mpcs. if you're worrying that your DAP will die one day and your next one won't be able to play mpc anymore, you can always transcode OR start ripping to lossless or lame if you don't have the space. lame has come a long way in the past few years. mpc vs mp3 vs ogg @ 180kbps

This post has been edited by twostar: Mar 26 2007, 10:22
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Unknown
post Mar 27 2007, 18:52
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All right guys, I listened on the two encodings on a pop song:

MPC insane -- > Lame V 0

vs.

CD -- > Lame V 0

I tested the two files on my logitech 5.1 280 w THX certified speakers. They are almost indistinctive unless you really listen for artifacts/differences.

I was able to tell the MPC insane -- > Lame V 0 by the sliiiightly poorer sounding cymbals/hi hats
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greynol
post Mar 27 2007, 19:09
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Were your tests sighted or blind?


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Unknown
post Mar 28 2007, 03:09
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QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 27 2007, 13:09) *
Were your tests sighted or blind?



Blind. Randomly playing any of the songs without looking which one foobar randomly chose
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...Just Elliott
post Apr 3 2007, 12:16
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Rockbox has been around since 2002, it's not going anywhere.


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