16bit vs 24bit, Rubbish or Truth? |
16bit vs 24bit, Rubbish or Truth? |
Mar 27 2007, 04:02
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#1
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Group: Banned Posts: 735 Joined: 19-March 06 Member No.: 28599 |
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This post has been edited by Bourne: Apr 2 2008, 19:26 |
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Jul 7 2008, 08:05
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#2
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![]() Group: Members Posts: 1018 Joined: 27-September 03 From: Cape Town Member No.: 9042 |
a) in practice, the average person (and sadly enough, many audio engineers) these days has far more hearing damage than they did 10 years ago, due to noise pollution, poorly mixed/mastered recordings, intentionally distorted musical content, excessive compression, improper EQ (can you say "Smiley face"), and high volume volume listening. Interesting. Do you have any evidence for this? I would have thought that improved standards on noise in the workplace would have decreased hearing loss among the general population. It is well understood that loud sounds can damage hearing, but I am not aware of any evidence that excessive compression (for example) can have the same effect.It would be great if you could present your evidence. These are the things greater dynamic range bring to the table. The loss of detail due to poor representation afforded by shorter word lengths occurs in the smoothness of the dynamic changes (waveform amplitude changes) in lower level signals/components of the recording. No. It is well understood that, for properly dithered quantization the quantization error is not correlated with the original signal (see Oppenheim and Schafer, "Discrete Time Signal Processing" or for a good modern treatment, or W. R. Bennet, "Spectra of Quantized Signals", Bell Systems Technical Journal, vol. 27, 1948 for the foundations of the theory). Stating this mathematically, we define the error samples e[n]:e[n] = Q(x[n]) - x[n] where Q() is the quantization process and x[n] is the samples of the signal under test. When dither is used (or for self dithering signals, where the analog SNR is below is the quantization SNR) the signal e[n] is not correlated with the signals x[n] and Q(x[n]). So what does this mean in practice? It means that the properly dithered quantization process is an additive noise process - it is equivalent to adding independent noise with a particular spectrum to the original signal. Another thing is this belief that more quantization causes "roughness" in the output signal. As you are well aware, the reconstruction process does not produced a stepped output - it produces a bandlimited (and hence fairly smooth) analogue output. The output of a good sampling/reconstruction process is not "rough" or "stepped" in any way - if anything it will be less "rough" because of the strict bandlimiting imposed on the process. This doesn't mean that recording, mixing, mastering an processing at high bit depths are without merit. There are plenty of good technical reasons to argue for this, though, so using audiophile terms like "roughness" and resorting to incorrect interpretations of the process are not necessary. When you start with more significant bits, you have the ability to end up with more significant bits in the final product. Merely playing back a PCM stream that uses 24-bit words doesn't imply that the extra bits are significant by itself. Many listening tests involve a normalized 24 bit recording and a normalized 16 bit recording that has been dithered and noise shaped from the same 24 bit source. There is far less audible difference between those two sources, assuming a good dither/noise shaping algorithm is used. However, that test is not the test that validates the value of recording, mixing, and mastering in the 24 bit domain. Of course. Mastering, mixing and recording in high bit depths (24 or more) is a good idea.
-------------------- Simulate your radar: http://www.brooker.co.za/fers/
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Bourne 16bit vs 24bit Mar 27 2007, 04:02
DigitalMan Hmm, very long article. Seems to be a collection ... Mar 27 2007, 04:20
Bourne the very topic of the link...
he is claiming that... Mar 27 2007, 04:25
greynol This has been covered to death on this forum alrea... Mar 27 2007, 09:56
2Bdecided It's a load of pseudo science. The guy has a h... Mar 27 2007, 10:00
ccryder QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 27 2007, 04:00) It... Jul 5 2008, 07:31
Canar QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 4 2008, 23:31) Belie... Jul 5 2008, 19:11
Bourne @greynol
I'm not starting a topic on that sub... Mar 27 2007, 23:31
Woodinville QUOTE (Bourne @ Mar 27 2007, 15:31) @grey... Mar 28 2007, 20:45
chelgrian QUOTE (Bourne @ Mar 27 2007, 23:31) I... Mar 28 2007, 21:23
benski It appears the site (and the article) are oriented... Mar 28 2007, 22:08
2Bdecided Hang on a second benski,
There's no argument ... Mar 29 2007, 11:48
Filburt Hmm, I just skimmed the first part, but the argume... Mar 29 2007, 20:51
AndyH-ha Who, believing in the gods, and their work in the... Mar 29 2007, 21:02
Pandabear Bourne - everyone's ears develop at their own ... Mar 30 2007, 03:12
pdq QUOTE (Pandabear @ Mar 29 2007, 22:12) No... Mar 30 2007, 15:45
Synthetic Soul QUOTE (Pandabear @ Mar 30 2007, 02:12) No... Mar 30 2007, 16:43
AndyH-ha I suspect most of us who visit here are capable of... Mar 30 2007, 05:49
pdq Let's see, I could believe David Robinson, or ... Jul 5 2008, 15:52
krabapple QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 5 2008, 10:52) Let's... Jul 7 2008, 18:41
Mike Giacomelli I was curious what got Dan Heend so upset after al... Jul 5 2008, 16:07
pdq "A passage that is 6dB louder than another pa... Jul 5 2008, 16:22
Mike Giacomelli QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 5 2008, 11:22) "A p... Jul 5 2008, 16:31

pdq QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Jul 5 2008, 11:3... Jul 5 2008, 16:35
ccryder QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 5 2008, 10:22) "A p... Jul 6 2008, 09:04
SebastianG QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 10:04) http:... Jul 6 2008, 11:17

MichaelW Cursed are the peacemakers, for they shall be beat... Jul 6 2008, 12:11
pdq QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 04:04) QUOTE... Jul 6 2008, 12:21
sld So it IS possible for people who get their Theory ... Jul 5 2008, 17:56
[JAZ] QUOTE (sld @ Jul 5 2008, 18:56) So it IS ... Jul 5 2008, 19:12
ccryder QUOTE ' date='Jul 5 2008, 13:12' post=... Jul 6 2008, 10:43
MLXXX QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 19:43) Might... Jul 6 2008, 12:50

ccryder QUOTE (MLXXX @ Jul 6 2008, 06:50) QUOTE (... Jul 6 2008, 13:35
Mike Giacomelli QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 05:43) Regar... Jul 6 2008, 17:05
AndyH-ha QUOTE One might get a greater appreciation for wha... Jul 6 2008, 20:23
Roseval The question of sampling rate and bit depth are a ... Jul 6 2008, 21:11
ccryder QUOTE (Roseval @ Jul 6 2008, 15:11) The q... Jul 6 2008, 23:19
Dynamic Edit: I started typing this before ccryder's r... Jul 7 2008, 00:34
hellokeith QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 6 2008, 17:19) There... Jul 7 2008, 01:49
AndyH-ha Aside from the fact that it is almost always easy ... Jul 7 2008, 05:55
ccryder QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 6 2008, 23:55)... Jul 7 2008, 08:13
MichaelW QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 20:13) #2, t... Jul 7 2008, 10:38

ccryder QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jul 7 2008, 04:38) QUOT... Jul 7 2008, 11:58
krabapple QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 03:13) The r... Jul 7 2008, 18:51
euphonic QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 00:13) #2, t... Jul 7 2008, 23:56
ccryder OK, Gonna try once more to get some of you to unde... Jul 8 2008, 05:31

krabapple QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 00:31) Is my... Jul 8 2008, 17:29
ccryder QUOTE (euphonic @ Jul 7 2008, 17:56) This... Jul 8 2008, 05:46
ccryder The actual realized signal to noise ratio of the r... Jul 8 2008, 06:27
Nick.C QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 05:46) Reall... Jul 8 2008, 07:54
knutinh QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 06:46) QUOTE... Jul 8 2008, 09:27
ccryder QUOTE (cabbagerat @ Jul 7 2008, 02:05) QU... Jul 7 2008, 08:51
SebastianG QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 09:51) That ... Jul 7 2008, 10:14
ccryder I never said a word about dither in my last post.
... Jul 7 2008, 11:47
SebastianG QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 7 2008, 12:47) I nev... Jul 7 2008, 13:15
AndyH-ha Expectation and belief can, and have repeatedly be... Jul 7 2008, 12:24
AndyH-ha There is a lot of (mostly one-sided) talk about ra... Jul 7 2008, 22:31
SebastianG QUOTE Simply put, just about every noise shaping a... Jul 8 2008, 09:49
MLXXX QUOTE (ccryder @ Jul 8 2008, 14:31) Botto... Jul 8 2008, 13:50
AndyH-ha “properly noise shaped dither” (what I wrote) is n... Jul 9 2008, 12:42
SebastianG Hi Andy!
QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Jul 9 20... Jul 9 2008, 14:07
AndyH-ha Here is my ignorance showing. How does one “bit sh... Jul 9 2008, 22:08
Nick.C If a signal with an amplitude of less than or equa... Jul 9 2008, 22:12
MichaelW QUOTE (Nick.C @ Jul 10 2008, 10:12) If a ... Jul 10 2008, 07:16
Nick.C QUOTE (MichaelW @ Jul 10 2008, 07:16) Doe... Jul 10 2008, 08:00
Chromatix Let's inject some common sense in to this, sha... Jul 10 2008, 13:52
SebastianG QUOTE (Chromatix @ Jul 10 2008, 14:52) ..... Jul 10 2008, 15:47
Axon Just to throw another log on the fire: My phono pr... Jul 10 2008, 16:52
Canar QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 10 2008, 08:52) Just to... Jul 10 2008, 17:12
pdq QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 10 2008, 11:52) Just to... Jul 10 2008, 17:28
Axon About 10, but still. Jul 10 2008, 17:33
hellokeith QUOTE (Chromatix @ Jul 10 2008, 07:52) I ... Jul 10 2008, 19:25
greynol C'mon now. This can be handled via PM.
Let... Jul 10 2008, 19:30
cabbagerat QUOTE (hellokeith @ Jul 10 2008, 10:25) H... Jul 10 2008, 21:08
Chromatix Those in-car numbers look vaguely sensible to me. ... Jul 11 2008, 11:31
2Bdecided The very best psychoacoustic experiments aim for 2... Jul 14 2008, 16:07![]() ![]() |
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