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Multiformat Listening Test @ 64 kbps - FINISHED
Sebastian Mares
post Aug 16 2007, 00:00
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The much awaited results of the Public, Multiformat Listening Test @ 64 kbps are ready - partially. So far, I only uploaded an overall plot along with a zoomed version. The details will be available tomorrow. You can also download the encryption key on the results page that is located here:

http://www.listening-tests.info/mf-64-1/results.htm
http://www.listening-tests.info/mf-64-1/resultsz.png

Nero and WMA Professional 10 are tied and WMA Professional 10 is tied to Vorbis. Vorbis however performed worse than Nero. Of course, High Anchor is best and Low Anchor loses.

This one goes to the experts: How would you rank codecs in such a situation, where A=B and B=C, but C<A?


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http://listening-tests.hydrogenaudio.org/sebastian/
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Alexxander
post Aug 17 2007, 09:30
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Congrat Nero!

I can't believe WMA Pro 10 is true CBR because it has good results compared to the VBR samples. If it really is there would be room for improvement (by going VBR) ohmy.gif
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halb27
post Aug 17 2007, 10:21
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QUOTE (Alexxander @ Aug 17 2007, 10:30) *
... I can't believe WMA Pro 10 is true CBR because it has good results compared to the VBR samples. If it really is there would be room for improvement (by going VBR) ohmy.gif

It's rather the other way around. The beleive in VBR's universal superiority has simply no good basis. Moreover there seems to be a common misconception that a constant frame bitrate (CBR) means constant audio data bitrate which is simply wrong. Maybe WMP10pro CBR offers a higher degree of audio data bitrate variation than for instance mp3 CBR. But even without it there's really no reason to think that constant bitrate automatically means reduced quality.
There's no contradiction to the fact that Vorbis, NeroAAC, MPC, Lame 3.98 are good at VBR.
Everything depends on codec principles and - may be to a larger extent - implementation details.

This post has been edited by halb27: Aug 17 2007, 10:28


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lame3100m --bCVBR 300
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Alexxander
post Aug 17 2007, 11:29
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QUOTE (halb27 @ Aug 17 2007, 11:21) *
...Moreover there seems to be a common misconception that a constant frame bitrate (CBR) means constant audio data bitrate which is simply wrong. Maybe WMP10pro CBR offers a higher degree of audio data bitrate variation than for instance mp3 CBR...

So CBR actually means constant frame bitrate? I thought CBR referred to constant audio data bitrate, like plain old PCM: for example sampling 8000 times per second at fixed intervals with 8 bits per sample. Then, if frame bitrate is constant but audio bitrate varies within a frame it's actually VBR but only on a different timescale. It all depends on the exact definitions and the correct use of terms (as always).

Thanks for clearing up.
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Posts in this topic
- Sebastian Mares   Multiformat Listening Test @ 64 kbps - FINISHED   Aug 16 2007, 00:00
- - guruboolez   Wow, thanks a lot for posting so fast these result...   Aug 16 2007, 00:06
|- - -Nepomuk-   Compare to the last 48kbit/s listening test, 64kbi...   Aug 16 2007, 00:27
||- - ff123   QUOTE (-Nepomuk- @ Aug 15 2007, 16...   Aug 16 2007, 01:43
||- - guruboolez   QUOTE (ff123 @ Aug 16 2007, 01:43) It...   Aug 16 2007, 01:52
|- - Sebastian Mares   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Aug 16 2007, 01:06) E...   Aug 16 2007, 00:32
- - rjamorim   Very interesting, Sebastian. Congratulations, and ...   Aug 16 2007, 00:28
- - kdo   Nice! I'm a little surprised that Vorbis ...   Aug 16 2007, 00:34
- - Sebastian Mares   All you need is Chunky! http://www.phong.org/c...   Aug 16 2007, 00:45
|- - kdo   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Aug 16 2007, 01...   Aug 16 2007, 00:48
- - guruboolez   My personal results: CODE WMAPro high Vorbis low H...   Aug 16 2007, 01:21
- - kwanbis   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Aug 15 2007, 23...   Aug 16 2007, 01:58
|- - echo   QUOTE (kwanbis @ Aug 16 2007, 03:58) QUOT...   Aug 17 2007, 00:36
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE (kwanbis @ Aug 15 2007, 17:58) QUOT...   Aug 21 2007, 20:48
- - kdo   Very interesting. After all my results are not so ...   Aug 16 2007, 02:00
- - kennedyb4   It seems that Itunes at 96 VBR has outscored Itune...   Aug 16 2007, 02:58
- - ff123   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Aug 15 2007, 16...   Aug 16 2007, 05:42
- - vinnie97   Guru, my taste mirrors yours on Vorbis...anything ...   Aug 16 2007, 07:39
- - Slacker   Little Question: How do I use the key to see my re...   Aug 16 2007, 09:17
|- - kdo   QUOTE (Slacker @ Aug 16 2007, 10:17) Litt...   Aug 16 2007, 09:34
- - Alexxander   I used the key and decrypted results through java ...   Aug 16 2007, 09:46
|- - Sebastian Mares   QUOTE (Alexxander @ Aug 16 2007, 10:46) I...   Aug 16 2007, 12:49
- - muaddib   Wow, much more results than what I expected! T...   Aug 16 2007, 10:07
|- - muaddib   QUOTE (muaddib @ Aug 16 2007, 11:07) QUOT...   Sep 26 2007, 13:40
- - Alex B   Here are my personal results: CODE% Sample Averag...   Aug 16 2007, 11:53
- - thana   i downloaded the rar file and tried to process the...   Aug 16 2007, 14:12
|- - kdo   QUOTE (thana @ Aug 16 2007, 15:12) i down...   Aug 16 2007, 14:20
|- - Alex B   QUOTE (thana @ Aug 16 2007, 16:12) i down...   Aug 16 2007, 15:08
- - Rio   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Aug 16 2007, 07...   Aug 16 2007, 15:11
|- - pdq   QUOTE (Rio @ Aug 16 2007, 10:11) QUOTE (S...   Aug 16 2007, 16:07
|- - benski   QUOTE (Rio @ Aug 16 2007, 10:11) QUOTE (S...   Aug 16 2007, 16:09
|- - ff123   QUOTE (benski @ Aug 16 2007, 08:09) One t...   Aug 16 2007, 16:20
|- - Whelkman   QUOTE (ff123 @ Aug 16 2007, 11:20) In the...   Aug 16 2007, 17:26
- - naylor83   Stupid question alert: If I ranked the reference,...   Aug 16 2007, 15:58
- - Sebastian Mares   The decrypted result files will then contain the r...   Aug 16 2007, 16:00
- - naylor83   Stupid question alert (again): I'm trying to ...   Aug 16 2007, 16:13
- - guruboolez   You can use MrQuestionMan, foobar2000 or several o...   Aug 16 2007, 16:17
|- - naylor83   QUOTE (guruboolez @ Aug 16 2007, 17:17) 1...   Aug 16 2007, 16:19
- - Sebastian Mares   Does anyone know how to make Excel to refer to the...   Aug 16 2007, 21:39
|- - mezenga   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Aug 16 2007, 12...   Aug 17 2007, 00:17
- - Sebastian Mares   Uploaded the plots for each sample. The correspond...   Aug 16 2007, 23:31
- - ff123   Interesting. he-aac had some clear winners over w...   Aug 17 2007, 00:18
- - rockcake   I'd also like to give a big thankyou to Sebast...   Aug 17 2007, 05:32
|- - TechVsLife   QUOTE (rockcake @ Aug 17 2007, 00:32) I...   Aug 17 2007, 07:43
- - IgorC   Thanks for test. Nero has done a good work.   Aug 17 2007, 08:05
- - Alexxander   Congrat Nero! I can't believe WMA Pro 10 ...   Aug 17 2007, 09:30
|- - halb27   QUOTE (Alexxander @ Aug 17 2007, 10:30) ....   Aug 17 2007, 10:21
||- - Alexxander   QUOTE (halb27 @ Aug 17 2007, 11:21) ...Mo...   Aug 17 2007, 11:29
|- - muaddib   QUOTE (Alexxander @ Aug 17 2007, 10:30) C...   Aug 17 2007, 10:22
- - Ivan Dimkovic   CBR, in this context, means: "Fixed bit rate...   Aug 17 2007, 11:40
- - Alex B   Sebastian, Could you possibly post the average re...   Aug 17 2007, 12:45
|- - muaddib   QUOTE (Alex B @ Aug 17 2007, 13:45) Could...   Aug 17 2007, 13:05
|- - Alex B   QUOTE (muaddib @ Aug 17 2007, 15:05) It i...   Aug 17 2007, 13:37
- - muaddib   This looks much better now. Nero is at its place ...   Aug 17 2007, 14:02
- - lexor   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Aug 15 2007, 20...   Aug 19 2007, 15:44
|- - halb27   QUOTE (lexor @ Aug 19 2007, 16:44) QUOTE ...   Aug 19 2007, 22:37
- - Jillian   How about use approximation instead of equality.   Aug 19 2007, 16:06
- - Nikaki   Interesting results. I only use Vorbis for high bi...   Aug 22 2007, 15:20
|- - TechVsLife   Wouldn't it make more sense just to go with on...   Aug 22 2007, 16:40
|- - Junon   QUOTE (TechVsLife @ Aug 22 2007, 17:40) W...   Aug 22 2007, 17:10
|- - TechVsLife   Thanks, I forgot about that whole dimension to the...   Aug 22 2007, 18:16
- - Woodinville   Out of curiousity, why is there no castinettes in ...   Aug 27 2007, 22:31
|- - [JAZ]   QUOTE (Woodinville @ Aug 27 2007, 23:31) ...   Aug 27 2007, 22:46
|- - Woodinville   QUOTE ' date='Aug 27 2007, 14:46' post...   Aug 28 2007, 18:03
- - Sebastian Mares   Well, I asked for sample suggestions long before t...   Aug 28 2007, 18:08
- - muaddib   How many of you that took test did use Headphones?...   Aug 31 2007, 15:28
|- - elmar3rd   QUOTE (muaddib @ Aug 31 2007, 14:28) How ...   Aug 31 2007, 15:54
||- - IgorC   Headphones for 17 samples. Loudspeakers for White...   Aug 31 2007, 17:19
|- - Alex B   I too used the Koss PortaPro headphones, which are...   Aug 31 2007, 20:08
- - ff123   headphones for me   Aug 31 2007, 15:35
- - kdo   good headphones (mid-price Beyerdynamic) with som...   Aug 31 2007, 17:44
- - naylor83   Headphones: Koss PortaPro   Aug 31 2007, 19:43
- - muaddib   It seems to me that in most cases headphones revea...   Sep 3 2007, 10:58
|- - naylor83   QUOTE (muaddib @ Sep 3 2007, 11:58) It se...   Sep 3 2007, 11:17
|- - muaddib   QUOTE (naylor83 @ Sep 3 2007, 12:17) Coul...   Sep 3 2007, 12:23
- - Whelkman   I used a pair of Sennheiser PX 100s for the test. ...   Sep 3 2007, 19:28
- - kdo   All of a sudden, I have got a small question -- ab...   Sep 6 2007, 13:54
- - Sebastian Mares   Within a sample plot, all bars should have the sam...   Sep 6 2007, 15:29
|- - kdo   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Sep 6 2007, 16:2...   Sep 6 2007, 16:06
- - Sebastian Mares   Maybe someone with more knowledge in statistics ca...   Sep 6 2007, 17:20
- - robert   Who said all bars should be equal? What do you wan...   Sep 6 2007, 18:00
- - Sebastian Mares   In my results (and Roberto's, Guru's and f...   Sep 6 2007, 23:06
|- - naylor83   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Sep 7 2007, 00:0...   Sep 6 2007, 23:11
- - ff123   For this type of analysis, the error bars are all ...   Sep 7 2007, 03:48
- - robert   So the bars do not represent the distribution of d...   Sep 7 2007, 10:58
|- - ff123   QUOTE (robert @ Sep 7 2007, 02:58) So the...   Sep 8 2007, 03:38
- - Moguta   I would've loved to see MP3 involved in this t...   Sep 8 2007, 02:56
- - Sebastian Mares   Yes, this is normal and depends on the mood, the l...   Sep 26 2007, 14:28
- - benwaggoner   Say, are there any plans for doing a new test here...   Apr 10 2008, 23:25
|- - benski   QUOTE (benwaggoner @ Apr 10 2008, 18:25) ...   Apr 10 2008, 23:29
|- - benwaggoner   QUOTE (benski @ Apr 10 2008, 14:29) QUOTE...   Apr 11 2008, 02:57
- - Sebastian Mares   The reason why WMA was tested in CBR mode is that ...   Apr 11 2008, 18:43
|- - benwaggoner   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Apr 11 2008, 09...   Apr 11 2008, 21:20
- - Sebastian Mares   The test performed by NSTL featured WMA in CBR mod...   Apr 11 2008, 21:45
|- - benwaggoner   QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Apr 11 2008, 12...   Apr 11 2008, 23:28
- - hellokeith   QUOTE (benwaggoner @ Apr 11 2008, 15:20) ...   Apr 12 2008, 08:27
|- - benwaggoner   QUOTE (hellokeith @ Apr 11 2008, 23:27) N...   Apr 13 2008, 06:19
- - IgorC   I tried 1 and 2 pass CBR wma10 at 64 kbit/s in pas...   Apr 12 2008, 12:55
- - vinnie97   I'm still anxiously awaiting the forthcoming ~...   Apr 14 2008, 08:30


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