Double-blind test of SACD and DVD-A vs. Redbook 16/44 in JAES Septembe, (hint: no surprises!) (bumped from 2007 in post #35) Options

[Axon]

"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback". E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran. JAES 55(9) September 2007. It's worth noting that members of the BAS wrote the paper and performed in the tests. You'll need an AES membership to access the article, so no link.

Abstract:

Claims both published and anecdotal are regularly made for audibly superior sound quality for two-channel audio encoded with longer word lengths and/or at higher sampling rates than the 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard. The authors report on a series of double-blind tests comparing the analog output of high-resolution players playing high-resolution recordings with the same signal passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz "bottleneck." The tests were conducted for over a year using different systems and a variety of subjects. The systems included expensive professional monitors and one high-end system with electrostatic loudspeakers and expensive components and cables. The subjects included professional recording engineers, students in a university recording program, and dedicated audiophiles. The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels.

This post has been edited by Axon: Sep 10 2007, 04:13

[usernaim]

I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to revisit this test in light of what we now know.

The simplest reason why the test would get a null result if if the hi-rez material were not actually. And what we know now is that many commercial SACDs and recordings sold on HD Tracks (many dervied from SACD masters) are not high resolution. Bruce at Puget Sound, who does a lot of the transfers, has said that they have to reject 30% of what is submitted by labels (now that they have been stung, they check every track but that was not always the case). And many SACDs with spectral content above 24 kHz have merely been upsampled after previously being downsampled to 44 or 48 kHz.

Looking at the list of sample tracks (http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm), I know at least Steely Dan Gaucho is not a legit high res transfer. Has anyone checked the spectrals on these samples?

So, how many of these tracks aren't what they purport to be? Who has the disks and can look at spectrals?

Patricia Barber – Nightclub (Mobile Fidelity UDSACD 2004)
Chesky: Various -- An Introduction to SACD (SACD204)
Chesky: Various -- Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc (CHDVD 171)
Stephen Hartke: Tituli/Cathedral in the Thrashing Rain; Hilliard Ensemble/Crockett (ECM New Series 1861, cat. no. 476 1155, SACD)
Bach Concertos: Perahia et al; Sony SACD
Mozart Piano Concertos: Perahia, Sony SACD
Kimber Kable: Purity, an Inspirational Collection SACD T Minus 5 Vocal Band, no cat. #
Tony Overwater: Op SACD (Turtle Records TRSA 0008)
McCoy Tyner Illuminati SACD (Telarc 63599)
Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon SACD (Capitol/EMI 82136)
Steely Dan, Gaucho, Geffen SACD
Alan Parsons, I, Robot DVD-A (Chesky CHDD 2003)
BSO, Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony SACD (RCA 82876-61387-2 RE1)
Carlos Heredia, Gypsy Flamenco SACD (Chesky SACD266)
Shakespeare in Song, Phoenix Bach Choir, Bruffy, SACD (Chandos CHSA 5031)
Livingston Taylor, Ink SACD (Chesky SACD253)
The Persuasions, The Persuasions Sing the Beatles, SACD (Chesky SACD244)
Steely Dan, Two Against Nature, DVD-A (24,96) Giant Records 9 24719-9
McCoy Tyner with Stanley Clark and Al Foster, Telarc SACD 3488

[Arnold B. Kruege...]

I'm not an advocate of hi-rez, but I wanted to revisit this test in light of what we now know.

The simplest reason why the test would get a null result if if the hi-rez material were not actually. And what we know now is that many commercial SACDs and recordings sold on HD Tracks (many dervied from SACD masters) are not high resolution. Bruce at Puget Sound, who does a lot of the transfers, has said that they have to reject 30% of what is submitted by labels (now that they have been stung, they check every track but that was not always the case). And many SACDs with spectral content above 24 kHz have merely been upsampled after previously being downsampled to 44 or 48 kHz.

Looking at the list of sample tracks (http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm), I know at least Steely Dan Gaucho is not a legit high res transfer. Has anyone checked the spectrals on these samples?

So, how many of these tracks aren't what they purport to be? Who has the disks and can look at spectrals?

A little quickie searching of Wikipedia and Amazon comes up with the following release dates:

Patricia Barber – Nightclub (Mobile Fidelity UDSACD 2004) Original Release Date: September 26, 2000

Chesky: Various -- An Introduction to SACD (SACD204) needs track by track analysis

Chesky: Various -- Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc (CHDVD 171) needs track by track analysis

Stephen Hartke: Tituli/Cathedral in the Thrashing Rain; Hilliard Ensemble/Crockett
(ECM New Series 1861, cat. no. 476 1155, SACD) Audio CD (November 18, 2008)

Bach Concertos: Perahia et al; Sony SACD Audio CD (March 12, 2002)

Mozart Piano Concertos: Perahia, Sony SACD Audio CD (October 25, 1990)

Kimber Kable: Purity, an Inspirational Collection SACD T Minus 5 Vocal Band, no cat. no audio CD equivalent found

Tony Overwater: Op SACD (Turtle Records TRSA 0008) Audio CD (March 18, 2008)


McCoy Tyner Illuminati SACD (Telarc 63599) Audio CD (June 22, 2004)


Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon SACD (Capitol/EMI 82136) Audio CD (March 1973)

Steely Dan, Gaucho, Geffen SACD Audio CD (1980)


Alan Parsons, I, Robot DVD-A (Chesky CHDD 2003) Audio CD (1977)


BSO, Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony SACD (RCA 82876-61387-2 RE1) Audio CD (July 5, 1991)


Carlos Heredia, Gypsy Flamenco SACD (Chesky SACD266) Audio CD (February 15, 1996)


Shakespeare in Song, Phoenix Bach Choir, Bruffy, SACD (Chandos CHSA 5031) Audio CD (September 21, 2004)

Livingston Taylor, Ink SACD (Chesky SACD253) Audio CD (September 23, 1997)

The Persuasions, The Persuasions Sing the Beatles, SACD (Chesky SACD244) Audio CD (February 26, 2002)

Steely Dan, Two Against Nature, DVD-A (24,96) Giant Records 9 24719-9 Audio CD (May 2, 2006)

McCoy Tyner with Stanley Clark and Al Foster, Telarc SACD 3488 Audio CD (January 25, 2000)

I would suggest that anything released prior to 1997 would have been originally tracked, mixed and/or mastered in what we would call now a legacy format, either 15 ips analog tape or 44-48-50 KHz sampled digital.

This suggests that 7 of the 20 or so total sources are guaranteed to give random guessing in the tests they did.

[2Bdecided]

Chesky: Various -- Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc (CHDVD 171) needs track by track analysis

At least some of this is from 24/96 masters.

I would suggest that anything released prior to 1997 would have been originally tracked, mixed and/or mastered in what we would call now a legacy format, either 15 ips analog tape or 44-48-50 KHz sampled digital.

This suggests that 7 of the 20 or so total sources are guaranteed to give random guessing in the tests they did.

Oh come on Arny - the whole point of Sony inventing DSD was to capture 15ips analogue tape in the best quality possible at the time. That's how it was presented at the AES: the best possible digital archive format for the Columbia archive they'd just bought.

Fans are/were forever wetting themselves about how these older recordings sound so much better on hi-res than CD.

The idea that 15ips analogue recordings don't sound better on hi-res than CD is only mentioned to try to debunk Mayer and Moran. Outside this specific purpose, fans of hi-res seem convinced that everything sounds better in hi-res than CD.

(but then, I know you know all this )

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: May 29 2012, 17:52