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Batman - Dark Knight 2008 Vinyl Version... WHAT!?, WHY!?
westerndigital
post Jul 10 2008, 17:56
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I'm totally lost here. Why on earth are they releasing the score on the vinyl format? I thought that format died (comercially) 20 years ago at least?

Can anyone tell me why? and explain why the Vinyl format? I thought CD was superior in all regards? blink.gif

And why batman? why not every other score out there? unsure.gif
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benski
post Jul 10 2008, 18:32
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QUOTE (westerndigital @ Jul 10 2008, 12:56) *
I'm totally lost here. Why on earth are they releasing the score on the vinyl format? I thought that format died (comercially) 20 years ago at least?

Can anyone tell me why? and explain why the Vinyl format? I thought CD was superior in all regards? blink.gif

And why batman? why not every other score out there? unsure.gif


Vinyl records sell reasonably well these days. Two main reasons. One is that if you are going to buy something physical (rather than an MP3 download), you might as well get your money's worth. at 12" diameter, you get a lot more tangible assets than a 5" CD smile.gif Second is that modern super-loud mastering techniques can't be applied to vinyl for needle-tracking reasons. So the mastering quality of the vinyl releases is often superior to CD, even if the fidelity of the recording medium is not.

This post has been edited by benski: Jul 10 2008, 18:32
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Axon
post Jul 10 2008, 18:36
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QUOTE (benski @ Jul 10 2008, 12:32) *
Vinyl records sell reasonably well these days. Two main reasons. One is that if you are going to buy something physical (rather than an MP3 download), you might as well get your money's worth. at 12" diameter, you get a lot more tangible assets than a 5" CD smile.gif Second is that modern super-loud mastering techniques can't be applied to vinyl for needle-tracking reasons. So the mastering quality of the vinyl releases is often superior to CD, even if the fidelity of the recording medium is not.
That's a myth, actually. Lots of vinyl uses the same hypercompressed master as exists on the CD version.

This largely boils down to (as you mention) physical music existing for collector's value more than as a mass medium. And a mountain of lies and technical ineptitude.
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Egor
post Jul 10 2008, 18:38
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QUOTE (westerndigital @ Jul 10 2008, 23:56) *
Can anyone tell me why? and explain why the Vinyl format? I thought CD was superior in all regards?

A special item for many fans, maybe. Some people still prefer paper books and vinyl discs just because of the nostalgia feeling. You can also try to ask on imdb.com, in the section for the movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/

BTW, I love the new Batman series!
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krabapple
post Jul 10 2008, 18:39
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QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 10 2008, 13:36) *
QUOTE (benski @ Jul 10 2008, 12:32) *
Vinyl records sell reasonably well these days. Two main reasons. One is that if you are going to buy something physical (rather than an MP3 download), you might as well get your money's worth. at 12" diameter, you get a lot more tangible assets than a 5" CD smile.gif Second is that modern super-loud mastering techniques can't be applied to vinyl for needle-tracking reasons. So the mastering quality of the vinyl releases is often superior to CD, even if the fidelity of the recording medium is not.
That's a myth, actually. Lots of vinyl uses the same hypercompressed master as exists on the CD version.

This largely boils down to (as you mention) physical music existing for collector's value more than as a mass medium. And a mountain of lies and technical ineptitude.



Could be the profit margin is pretty high too. HAs anyone ever figured out how much it costs to make and distribute an LP these days, vs the price.
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DVDdoug
post Jul 10 2008, 19:03
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Maybe it's so DJs can "scratch"...

Actually, there are lots of audiophiles that think vinyl sounds better. Personally, I was always annoyed by the little (sometimes not so little) ticks & pops that developed, even though I really tried to take care of my records. And the fact is, that in the "vinyl days" most records were not produced/engineered/mastered for high-quality. Once in a while you'd run-across a "gem", but the average record didn't really sound that good. (I think a lot of them had the high-frequencies rolled-off, and maybe the mid-highs boosted.) The average/typical CD sounds much better than the average record ever did. The exception is, that the compression used during re-mastering can sometimes make the CD sound worse than a (new pristine condition) vinyl record of the same recording.

And then you have all of the "analog" issues... The phono preamp can add noise, and the pickup cartridge can have frequency response variations, you can get rumble and speed variatoins from the turntable, abd probably lots of other stuff I've forgotten about. Oh, you also get the "Thump" when you drop the needle onto the record.
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Axon
post Jul 10 2008, 19:05
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QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 10 2008, 13:03) *
Maybe it's so DJs can "scratch"...
Anecdotally I've heard that DJ vinyl sales have been declining, now that many/most people scratch with CDs.
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hellokeith
post Jul 10 2008, 19:16
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QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 10 2008, 13:03) *
I was always annoyed by the little (sometimes not so little) ticks & pops


While the record is spinning, slowly pour cap-fulls of rubbing alcohol onto the record and let it distribute evenly across the whole record. It will get rid of some of those noises. My uncle showed me that about 20 years ago when I was a kid. Neither of us ABX'd it of course. biggrin.gif
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DVDdoug
post Jul 10 2008, 19:18
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QUOTE
Could be the profit margin is pretty high too. HAs anyone ever figured out how much it costs to make and distribute an LP these days, vs the price.
I'm sure there is a price-premium (and therefore a profit-premium), because it's a "unique" item. Anybody who wants vinyl will be willing to pay more for it.... And, I'll bet most vinyl-buyers buy the CD too.

On the cost side, the per-unit costs are higher when the volume is low. In the music industry, most of the costs are fixed-costs (overhead, etc.). It only costs a dollar or two to "make" a CD, but that's just the variable cost. At $15, the record companies are still managing to loose money.

This post has been edited by DVDdoug: Jul 10 2008, 19:20
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Axon
post Jul 10 2008, 19:23
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Yeah, a lot of the added price of vinyl is eaten up by manufacturing and shipping costs. Anecdotally, I've heard most vinyl releases of pop/rock CDs are not moneymakers.

Many labels refuse to accept vinyl returns too, so record stores wind up eating the cost of the record if it's defective, if they accept returns to begin with.
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Canar
post Jul 10 2008, 19:58
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QUOTE (Axon @ Jul 10 2008, 11:05) *
Anecdotally I've heard that DJ vinyl sales have been declining, now that many/most people scratch with CDs.
And/or Serato. What a fantastic piece of software...


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slks
post Jul 10 2008, 22:09
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QUOTE (Egor @ Jul 10 2008, 12:38) *
A special item for many fans, maybe. Some people still prefer paper books and vinyl discs just because of the nostalgia feeling.


As opposed to metal or gelatinous books?


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Axon
post Jul 10 2008, 22:15
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QUOTE (slks @ Jul 10 2008, 16:09) *
QUOTE (Egor @ Jul 10 2008, 12:38) *

A special item for many fans, maybe. Some people still prefer paper books and vinyl discs just because of the nostalgia feeling.


As opposed to metal or gelatinous books?
You forgot two commas.
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sizetwo
post Jul 10 2008, 22:28
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Axon: I feel that its people like you, trying to put down vinyl, that actually help vinyl defenders get their points across even more sturdily. I know (well, trust people telling me) that CD's are superior in audio quality, however, pushing it as hard as you do will push people either way IMO.

Anyway, I have no answer to OP's question I'm afraid.
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Axon
post Jul 11 2008, 00:54
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Heh. I guess I have been throwing down the gauntlet a smidge too often recently.

That said, most of my comments are directed at the peanut gallery around here more than anybody else. I've been one of the "pro"-vinyl guys on HA for a while.

I just think that people are being given a raw deal when they're sold on to vinyl purely on technical merits, which generally are sorely lacking, and is generally used as a reason to buy more expensive releases. More money spent on the same amount of music = less music listened to = bad, in my view.
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plonk420
post Jul 11 2008, 05:25
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i thought vinyl was the only format to increase in sales last year?
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krabapple
post Jul 11 2008, 06:29
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QUOTE (hellokeith @ Jul 10 2008, 14:16) *
QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Jul 10 2008, 13:03) *

I was always annoyed by the little (sometimes not so little) ticks & pops


While the record is spinning, slowly pour cap-fulls of rubbing alcohol onto the record and let it distribute evenly across the whole record. It will get rid of some of those noises. My uncle showed me that about 20 years ago when I was a kid. Neither of us ABX'd it of course. biggrin.gif


All that does is distribute the noise-making stuff throughout the record surface. Wet playing only 'works' if you play the album wet every time after that.

Nowadays the real LP geeks all have LP vacuum devices, to wet-clean and then vacuum dry the discs. That sucks the dirt off of the LP.



QUOTE (plonk420 @ Jul 11 2008, 00:25) *
i thought vinyl was the only format to increase in sales last year?


The only *physical* format, you mean. laugh.gif

QUOTE (sizetwo @ Jul 10 2008, 17:28) *
Axon: I feel that its people like you, trying to put down vinyl, that actually help vinyl defenders get their points across even more sturdily. I know (well, trust people telling me) that CD's are superior in audio quality, however, pushing it as hard as you do will push people either way IMO.


Vinyl defenders tend to be beyond reason when it comes to their beloved black platters. So any 'putting down' is mainly of use to those more casual consumers who may have a vague 'received opinion' that vinyl is just inherently 'better' than CD (thanks to years and years of propaganda from luddite audio snobs -- the same folks who brought you 'mp3s sound like crap'), but don't really know the facts one way or the other.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Jul 11 2008, 06:31
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leavingharvard
post Jul 19 2008, 22:07
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QUOTE (westerndigital @ Jul 10 2008, 10:56) *
I'm totally lost here. Why on earth are they releasing the score on the vinyl format? I thought that format died (comercially) 20 years ago at least?

Can anyone tell me why? and explain why the Vinyl format? I thought CD was superior in all regards? blink.gif

And why batman? why not every other score out there? unsure.gif


It's not like you're paying for the investment to do the vinyl so why do you care? Just wondering. Seems like you're just trying to scuttle up some dust and cause another vinyl vs cd fanboy bitchfight.

-1 for trying to create drama.
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Axon
post Jul 19 2008, 23:05
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QUOTE (leavingharvard @ Jul 19 2008, 16:07) *
It's not like you're paying for the investment to do the vinyl so why do you care? Just wondering. Seems like you're just trying to scuttle up some dust and cause another vinyl vs cd fanboy bitchfight.

-1 for trying to create drama.


You missed a comma between "vinyl" and "so".
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sven_Bent
post Jul 20 2008, 00:46
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QUOTE (benski @ Jul 10 2008, 19:32) *
Second is that modern super-loud mastering techniques can't be applied to vinyl for needle-tracking reasons. So the mastering quality of the vinyl releases is often superior to CD, even if the fidelity of the recording medium is not.


That has to be the first time i have ever herd a non-bullshit non-placebo argument for why vinyls is better then CD.

-- edit ---
Well seem its wasn't true anyway. but damn that argument hit me hard.

This post has been edited by sven_Bent: Jul 20 2008, 00:48


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bburl
post Jul 20 2008, 09:16
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Vinyl can sound better if it is mastered for vinyl, even if the goal is to make the vinyl as loud as possible. This is Steve Berson talking about how to master for vinyl (and he isn't an audiophile engineer nor is he telling people how to make an audiophile master) on prosoundweb.com:

QUOTE
don't clip your wave forms!!!! - clipped wave forms with squared tops will often break up really really quick when transferred to vinyl master at a hot level. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to clip your wav forms on a pre-master destined for vinyl. While it's a popular way to achieve extreme average levels for a CD master it will actually make the cutting engineer cut your record quieter than if you're wav forms have nice natural rounded tops. I've seen lots of people introduce clicks and pops into their master because they clipped their audio way too excessively and didn't notice it because of their crappy monitoring - so I think it's best to completely avoid this problem and make -0.3dbFs your output ceiling.

* go light with the limiter!! - while a little peak limiting to tame the big transients can actually be a really helpful for keeping even levels the current squash settings used on a lot of digital masters will actually make things distort more quickly because in overly limited material instead of the peaks on the vinyl master being nice round bottom transients all the upper mids are forced to the top too . Remember dBfs does not translate into dBvu!!! - the levels that go to your vinyl master are actually set by the cutting engineer - so if you're questioning how much limiting or compression to use communicate with the cutting engineer and let them apply what they see fit to do.

* keep it "clean" - any distortion in the digital realm tends to become more noticeable when transferred to vinyl


Mastering vinyl too loud can lead to mistracking, having grooves cut into their neighbor during cutting, and limiting the duration of the disk. All reasons not have too loud lp masters.

Also, a lot of vinyl is for the audiophile market, so they take extra care not to master it hot.

Vinyl can also sound like poo, especially if the pmcd is used because it has to be cut quiet to prevent tracking problems and having grooves that are too big, which destroys the snr. Also, much of the vinyl from the very late 70's to the late 80's had a digital stage that was either 8 or 14 bit (i can't remember) and horrendous A/D converters, even if it is labelled AAA. So they can sound bad as well.

At least that's my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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thinkum dinkum
post Jul 20 2008, 10:42
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QUOTE (westerndigital @ Jul 10 2008, 18:56) *
I'm totally lost here. Why on earth are they releasing the score on the vinyl format? I thought that format died (comercially) 20 years ago at least?

Can anyone tell me why? and explain why the Vinyl format? I thought CD was superior in all regards? blink.gif

And why batman? why not every other score out there? unsure.gif

some people just like to listen music on vinyl records
I'm not talking about those who preach that vinyl sounds better, but people that just like that format.
Some people enjoy not having physical copies, cause it take unnecessary space, and it's more expensive.

From my experience vinyl market is doing well lately, so i'm not so surprised, i would be if i saw batman limited edition cassette format biggrin.gif
I'm trying to say, it's not all black&white

so, why not?


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