Need help choosing a turntable, Was: Am I on the Right Track (TOS6) Options

[bburl]

I am thinking of getting into vinyl and I'm looking for some constructive criticism as to my thought process on which deck to buy. So here is what I'm thinking:

My tt of choice is the 1200mk2. The reason I want a Technics (an this is just my opinion, thats all) is because it is the one that makes sense to me. I am very suspicious of the audiophile world, it seems to me that it is mostly B.S., where increasing price automatically means increasing sound quality. Cables, tubes, burn in, the distrust of abx testing, the lack of solid numerical comparisons etc. all lead me to believe that most audiophile based upon wishful thinking and the 'I paid a lot of money for it so it must be good' thinking. The small boutique audio companies just do not have the resources for a decent R&D program, nor do they have the economies of scale, big manufacturers do. Technics is part of the Panasonic empire, and, as far as I understand, they spent a lot of money R&Ding the 1200's. They are a mass market item, so the cost of production is very low. Sure mass market stuff can be crap (and it usually is), but it is also the most efficient way to create quality items for reasonable cost. I just don't think the small turntable companies could turn out anything nearly as good without spending a lot of money on research, and then they would have to produce the item without out the benefits of economies of scale. Which means that small audiophile companies are not on the top of my list of who to buy from because they are not good value. What mass market major manufacturer quality decks are out there? Geez, not many. & how do you know if a mass market item is good value? You wait till the product has a track record then you look at the reputation, user reviews, and the specs. The 1200 is a winner in all categories, and there is a refreshing lack of b.s. when people talk about it. Is it the best turntable out there? I have no idea, but the odds are very good that it will produce sound that I will enjoy immensely for a very long time and I won't feel ripped off. Now I just wish I could find a cartridge that I could be equally as confident about.

So if you think I am misguided, please tell me why.

[dyneq]

Here's a nickel's worth of free advice :

In the end, these kinds of questions are best answered by you. Take your time and investigate your options with an open mind.

FWIW, I have a Technics TT that has been wonderful since I bought it in 1989. I've spent many hours bringing in vinyl to digital. Since I grew up in the 70's, I have a certain sentimental side for vinyl and all its associated rituals.

Nowadays, I'll only digitize my vinyl if the music isn't available digitally on the open market AND it's in excellent condition.

[Axon]

No, that's pretty reasonable. That's basically why I bought my 1200.

IMHO the two objections on the 1200 that have particular merit are the vibrational isolation and the tonearm. The rubber feet are kinda stiff, compared to what you can get now, and it might make sense to score some sorbothane feet if you feel that it's becoming an issue. So far it hasn't been for me.

The tonearm is a more interesting story. A lot of audiophiles rag on the 1200 arm very hard, and they have some theoretical reasons for doing so, but it's very hard to obtain any kind of objective data on the matter. I recently taunted a guy into digging up some reviews of the 1700 arm (essentially the same as the 1200), including a vibrational analysis test with an accelerometer, and a comparison review of the Rega RB-300, which apparently wiped the floor with the 1700 arm. That said, it's entirely unclear how audible the difference really is - the improvement could still potentially be beyond the realm of audibility. But if you wind up caring about that sort of thing you can always buy an Origin Live mount and slap a Rega tonearm onto the 1200.

Also, the used market in 1200s is VASTLY better than the used market in any other table. Around here, a mint 1200 sells for $300-350 used, and $400 new. Audiophile tables tend to depreciate in far greater value. (I paid $300 for a 9-month old MMF5, which retailed for what, $600? And I bought it from a dealer.)

[jonahsdad]

In defense of audiophiles, some may go for snake oil, but most are normal people looking for reasonable value from their purchases. Are some cables better than others? Hell yeah! Are they all worth the money charged? Hell no!

Audiophilia is a form of connoisseurship. It is not unlike wine or art. The ability to evaluate is based on education and a broad range of experience. I for one enjoy wine. I'm pretty convinced though that a bottle costing more than about $30 is wasted on me. This is not to say that someone else can discern and enjoy the difference between good wine and better wine.

Regarding the Technics, a quick search on Audiogon shows that the SP-1200 is highly regarded. It's a perfectly good option in the sub $1K price range. According to a discussion thread there, there is someone who does mods on the SP-1200. Could be a viable upgrade path in the future, if you feel the desire.

Like any population, audiophiles include all types of people, including idiots and pretentious assholes. Please don't judge us all based on the foolishness of a few.

[jonahsdad]

A comment on your thought process:
R&D is more important in some products than in others, and the direction it takes is often based on business considerations rather than maximizing performance.

Turntables are very simple. They need to turn a platter at a steady speed, in spite of electrical fluctuations and stylus drag, and they need to isolate vibrations which can feed back through the cartridge, distorting the sound. I would argue that design, execution and workmanship are far more important than innovation in making a good turntable.

It is true that Panasonic can manufacture a more complex product more efficiently than a small company. This is why the small companies all make belt drive tables - they are simpler, they require cheaper motors, and they play to their strengths - execution and workmanship.

Not to say that the SP-1200 isn't a good table. I'm just talking thought process.

You could do an ABX between the SP-1200 and a comparably priced Rega belt drive. I'd be interested in the result.

[incunabula]

SL-1200. Not SP-1200. Unless we're discussing vintage drum machines.

[Soap]

Turntables are very simple. They need to turn a platter at a steady speed, in spite of electrical fluctuations and stylus drag, and they need to isolate vibrations which can feed back through the cartridge, distorting the sound. I would argue that design, execution and workmanship are far more important than innovation in making a good turntable.

Two little nit-picks.

1 - While the mechanics of the turning table itself might be relatively simple, the mechanical balances, trade offs, and engineering required of a good tone-arm are arguably at least as important and harder to accomplish, something you did not address

2 - You dismiss R&D while stressing design. I think the terms are synonymous in this context.

[honestguv]

> So if you think I am misguided, please tell me why.

You do not have a record collection, records became obsolete decades ago, records perform poorly compared to current formats, you do not seem to have a "vintage" interest in record players,... If we knew why you had an interest in record players it may help with the guidance/misguidance.

The most important component of a record player in terms of sound quality is the cartridge which all sound different in the same way as speakers. The second most important is the arm which must be suitable for the cartridge and perform an impossible job in dealing with the problem that when the stylus moves one way it moves in the other. (Optically scanning the record and storing a digital signal would be the rational approach these days but is not what audiophiles would be interested in buying.) The least important is the record deck which has a relatively straightforward task although there is some variation in how well this is achieved. How and where you site the record player is probably more important.

The design of the Technics is well suited to being a DJ turntable but less suited to being the last word in turning at a constant speed with maximum vibration isolation. It is reported to be well made and so is likely to do the latter reasonable well unless you get a knackered one.

[bburl]

@honestguv: My interest in vinyl comes from two things. First, there are some discs I'd really like to listen to that aren't on cd (Makoto Kawabata/Acid Mothers Temple, Kieth Tippett, and Rudolph Grey for example). Second, some of the vinyl rips I've heard sound better then the cd equivalent. When the laws regarding torrenting change here in a few months, I still want to be able to hear superior Lps. I do think digital has a vastly greater potential to sound better than vinyl, it's just that it doesn't always.

I also like when you wrote "The least important is the record deck which has a relatively straightforward task although there is some variation in how well this is achieved. How and where you site the record player is probably more important." That's they way I think. I just can't see needing to spend 20 000 on something that is so simple. Although this table is kinda cool. It's based on a 50 year old turntable.

Thanks for the replies.

This post has been edited by bburl: Jul 18 2008, 12:43

[2Bdecided]

If you can consider a Garrard 301 as an alternative to a Technics SL-1200MK2, then you don't really know what you want at all!

This is the truest thing said here...

The design of the Technics is well suited to being a DJ turntable but less suited to being the last word in turning at a constant speed with maximum vibration isolation. It is reported to be well made and so is likely to do the latter reasonable well unless you get a knackered one.

For just playing records, I'd buy a decent second hand hi-fi/audiophile turntable, not a new DJ one. Either way, you need to buy a new cartridge and stylus, and have something available with a good phono input.

What are the changes to laws in your country? I don't want to debate copyright law, but if you own a CD or LP, and also download a needledrop of it from somewhere, it doesn't seem to me that a sale has been lost or an artist has been robbed. If you buy the LP and download a needledrop because you don't have a turntable, at least you have a pretty 12" piece of cardboard to hang on your wall!

Cheers,
David.

(Optically scanning the record and storing a digital signal would be the rational approach these days but is not what audiophiles would be interested in buying.)

Connect this to an A/D and you have what you want:
http://www.elpj.com/

Cheers,
David.

[bburl]

I just mentioned the Garrad not because I think it sounds better, but because of the aesthetics of having an antique yet good turntable, a frivolous waste of money but cool.

The changes in the laws are two fold. First the gov. is going to force ISP's to divulge the names and addresses of people based on ip address, second they are going to jack up the fines. $500 for EACH file downloaded and $2000 for EACH file uploaded. Which means if you upload 20 albums with ten tracks each, you could lose your house. It's a pretty big change, and not 100% guaranteed to happen, but it is very very likely to happen. There won't be any enforcement by the national police, so the enforcement will come from the companies who own the rights. So I think it will still be possible to torrent some indy stuff, as all the lawsuits in the us come from RIAA members. C'est la vie...