Need a good, skeptical audio resource, Helping parents buy new audio equipment Options

[Jebus]

Hi guys!


My parents are in the market for audio equipment. I've told them to buy an amp based on features alone, cheap cables, and speakers that sound nice to them. They do respect my opinions on technical stuff, but my mom called today asking about tube amplifiers because she heard one in a store and it "sounded fantastic".



I need references to back up what i'm telling her: Tube amps color the sound, have greater THD, and cost too much. Also, the store played music of THEIR choice, and obviously didn't compare it to a solid-state amp hooked up to the same equipment.



Any good links? Preferably layman's info, but any references at all would be good. I told them to avoid audio magazines.

This post has been edited by Jebus: Aug 9 2008, 21:23

[JeanLuc]

Tell them about physics ...

Besides technical details like THD or uneven frequency response and lack of useful features (like a sufficient number of inputs, a balance control, a record select or a remote control), most tube amps have a really poor power output at a ridiculously high power consumption which:

- makes these devices highly inefficient (higher operating costs in addition to higher purchase costs) and

- creates a need for very efficient speakers to enjoy music dynamics at a decent listening loudness. Only speakers that come with an efficiency in the range of e.g. the Klipschhorn can be operated without problems ... most 3-way floorstanders or 2-way bookshelf speakers cannot.

Besides, most tube amps are not really suited for stacking in a rack and tubes themselves need bias current adjustments from time to time.

This post has been edited by JeanLuc: Aug 9 2008, 22:27

[Apesbrain]

Seriously, they should take their own music in, listen for a while to products in their price range, and buy whatever sounds best to them. Who cares if it's tube or solid-state? Yes, tubes do have a unique harmonic signature (distortion), but some people prefer it. Only thing I'd warn them about is the need to re-tube after a number of years; it can be expensive. And, particularly with tubes, be sure the dealer is an established shop that is going to be around when you need them.

Right now, however, I'd say the transistor camp has it all over tubes at more "reasonable" price points. Any number of units from NAD, Parasound, Creek and Cambridge Audio would make for a fine pre/power or integrated amp solution. A pair of Bowers & Wilkins 685 speakers on solid stands, with a Cambridge Audio 540 CD player and 540 integrated amp would be well worth a listen. Or, try similar speakers from PSB, Paradigm, NHT, Monitor Audio, Pinnacle, or Focal/JMLab. (Audition the Magneplanar MMG for something completely different; sold "money-back" direct at magnepan.com.) Cambridge sells a nice turntable if you want one, or there are other entry models available from ProJect, Music Hall, and Rega. High-value cables are offered by Kimber Kable at a range of prices.

Why tell them not to read the hi-fi rags? By doing so, you get an "experienced" opinion and learn something about how to listen. They are also a fun read and half the joy of acquiring new gear is doing the research. The Absolute Sound is very well written and may turn your parents on to a brand or model (or some new music) they haven't considered. You can't go wrong starting with the TAS or Stereophile list of recommended products. You don't even have to pay for it: the TAS "Editors Choice" list is right here.

Happy hunting!

[sizetwo]

Hi guys!


My parents are in the market for audio equipment. I've told them to buy an amp based on features alone, cheap cables, and speakers that sound nice to them. They do respect my opinions on technical stuff, but my mom called today asking about tube amplifiers because she heard one in a store and it "sounded fantastic".



I need references to back up what i'm telling her: Tube amps color the sound, have greater THD, and cost too much. Also, the store played music of THEIR choice, and obviously didn't compare it to a solid-state amp hooked up to the same equipment.



Any good links? Preferably layman's info, but any references at all would be good. I told them to avoid audio magazines.

Even though you are right, she thinks it sounds fantastic, and might be very happy with a tube amp. As any "audiophile" wont tell you, 99% of their "perceived" audio quality comes from their own happiness with their equipment. And who are we to tell them they shouldnt be ? Its their money and their choice to make. So I say, if she thinks it sounds "better" than other equipment and she can afford it, then why not...

I know its a bit of an anti-pragmatic approach to the whole idea, but in the end, whatever makes people happy should be defining factor, should it not...

On the other end, I suggest you go with your parents to the store and do a blindtest with them and see if they actually can tell the difference/"coloring" that the tube amp adds.

[Soap]

You don't even have to pay for it: the TAS "Editors Choice" list is right here.

If I am reading the original poster correctly - quotes from the linked PDF such as this: (regarding interconnects)

This interconnect is either dead neutral or tilts a notch to the yang, with dynamics at once powerful yet finely resolved in an essentially grain-free presentation. Tilting a tad toward the yin, the 8TC has the elusive ability to remain musical no matter what is happening fore or aft, ideally mediating detail, liveliness, tonal neutrality, and dynamic contrasts within a very realistic, holographic soundstage.

are exactly what he is seeking to avoid.

[Jebus]

This interconnect is either dead neutral or tilts a notch to the yang, with dynamics at once powerful yet finely resolved in an essentially grain-free presentation. Tilting a tad toward the yin, the 8TC has the elusive ability to remain musical no matter what is happening fore or aft, ideally mediating detail, liveliness, tonal neutrality, and dynamic contrasts within a very realistic, holographic soundstage.

Haha yep! that's a good example... if anyone has a REPUTABLE dead-wood audio resource, that would also be fine. I'm just not convinced there are any.

This post has been edited by Jebus: Aug 9 2008, 23:04

[MichaelW]

In any practical audio situation, the way the stuff looks is, actually, important--especially to the member of a couple who cares most about the way the room looks. The point of the thing is to give pleasure, after all.

So, if you're convinced they can get the sound your mom hears in their own setting, and it's in their budget, there's no particular reason to tell them no. Maybe she likes the glow of the tubes (though she's unlikely to be old enough for this to be a nostalgic experience for her). Plenty of stuff has been bought for less rational reasons--I mean, the tubes do actually glow, irrespective of yin and yang. Probably not best VFM and not what you or I would buy, but let 'em splurge on that and concentrate on stopping the salesman waste their money on cables.

[Axon]

Yeah, if she's going to splurge, she's going to splurge. There are only a couple legs you may have to stand on to shoot down the tube amp idea. First, if it has a track record for burning through tubes quickly, that is worth noting. (But many amps have tubes that last for years and years.) Second, check to see if it has UL certification. The big (transistor) companies get UL cert; the little shops don't, and some of them have really atrocious build practices.

In all reality most music is not going to be adversely impacted one way or another by choosing wrongly between tubes or transistors (at least the decent implementations thereof). Just make sure that the dealer has a 30-day no-questions-asked return policy, and help her get everything installed as soon as possible, to identify issues with the sound in her own listening environment.

[DVDdoug]

I don't know of any good references... You might try Consumer Reports. I think you can get some basic information from their website without subscribing, and I think you can get online access to the back issues by subscribing for just one month. Or, you may be able to buy one particular article. They are unbiased, and they can tell you (your parents) what's important and what's marketing nonsense. The downside of Consumer Reports is that they are neither enthusiasts nor experts in any particular field. If I was in the market for a sports car, I wouldn't read Consumer Reports, I'd read a sports car magazine... But, I don't have as much trust in audio/audiophile publications...

There are so many considerations... How much room do you have for speakers? Does the equipment need to blend with the decor? Are you going to use the system for home theatre? What kind of music do you listen to? How loud do you listen? What is your budget? Etc?... As much as most of us hate salesmen, a good salesman can help guide you in the right direction with some of the issues. If I'm buying a stereo, TV, or a car, I don't want to talk to a salesman. But, if I'm buying a washing machine or dishwasher, I'm lost and I need some advice. Of course, you have to understand the salesman's motivation is to make a sale... To make a sale NOW, before you leave the store... They never believe you when you say "I'll be back". And, he/she wants to make a BIG sale if he can.

but my mom called today asking about tube amplifiers because she heard one in a store and it "sounded fantastic".

Good! At least she's listening to the equipment (that's the important thing), and she wants good sound. I think I'd just re-iterate that the speakers have the biggest effect on the character of the sound, and I would encourage her to listen to a solid state amp with the same speakers, at the same volume. And, if cost is a consideration, she is better-off putting money into speakers than into a tube amp.

Solid State amps are usually more powerful too... if that's an issue. And, tube-amps are less efficient... less "green".... The tube-amp will typically consume more power when idle than a solid-state amp that's actually putting-out sound.

But, I would be honest... A lot of "cost-is-no-object" audiophiles do prefer tubes! If cost is not an issue, they can have good speakers and a good tube amp. And, you should be honest about your personal biases... Maybe you wouldn't spend as much for the system.... Maybe you would never spend as much for a tube amp... maybe you'd want more power, or maybe you like lots of bass, etc. But, this is their purchase.

This post has been edited by DVDdoug: Aug 11 2008, 20:47

[Tahnru]

I've had some luck printing this out and giving it to good-natured friends. It isn't written from an educators tone, though, and is too confrontational in many cases.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

[pawelq]

Or, try similar speakers from PSB, Paradigm, NHT, Monitor Audio, Pinnacle, or Focal/JMLab.

Add Tannoy to your audition list.

[brimstone]

I've had some luck printing this out and giving it to good-natured friends. It isn't written from an educators tone, though, and is too confrontational in many cases.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

I think there are better articles in The Audio Critic, like this one on page 13.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/...Critic_20_r.pdf

The over all tone of The Audio Critic tends to be a bit confrontational though, which can be a bit entertaining sometimes but I think that accuracy can suffer when it is taken too far.

[krabapple]

Tell her that human hearing is very susceptible to suggestion from factors that have nothing to do with the sound (price, looks, 'reputation') -- so much so that differences in quality could be entirely imaginary. She's probably heard of blind taste tests, you can tell her that in similar tests with hearing often have surprising results (just like sometimes the cheaper wine gets the higher score in a blind test!) If you're *really* ambitious, you could set up a blind test for her.

Focus on what makes a real audible difference. Tell her that it's most important to get good speakers. Try to convince her of the benefits of AVRs that have auto calibration and room correction (yes, even for two-channel audio).

In the end, the best you can hope for is that she goes into the buying process aware of its usual pitfalls, and with a clear eyed sense of healthy skepticism about her OWN powers of sighted discrimination (much less the outrageous hokum the salespeople will be spouting).

But please, don't let her spend a fortune on cables. ;>

[Axon]

You do have a point; every dollar that gets sent to the likes of Pear is a dollar spent supporting, well, evil.

[2Bdecided]

What matters is what it sounds like at home, not in the shop.

Different speakers interact with different rooms in different ways - this is a much larger influence on the sound than the choice of amp.

If you can't listen to the system at home, and the room in the shop is nothing like the room you have at home, and you can't even listen to your own music, then walk away. You might as well buy at random from the internet then base your decisions on listening to music you don't like in a room that you don't have.

Cheers,
David.

[Jebus]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I hear a lot of people preaching relativism though; she ASKED me what I thought of tube amps... i'm not going to tell her that she should buy one if she likes it. She wanted an impartial, objective viewpoint.

I've already talked her down, and she's disappointed (because it looked cool) but glad she asked.